Fisheries Committee on March 19th, 2024

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

As part of that responsibility, you have a responsibility for enforcing trespassing law and the illegal possession and use of firearms in the province, do you not?

[C/Supt Sue Black]

Yes, we do.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Last year, during the illegal elver season, very few, if any, trespassing charges were laid. Maybe you can enlighten us on that.

I can tell you that I know from my constituents, two minutes from my house, that the RCMP were called nightly at the Tantallon detachment and were asked to make arrests. There were nightly poachers on their land, over four months, defecating and destroying their land. Eventually, the detachment said to please stop calling them or they would arrest them. They would arrest the property owner.

Why would the RCMP refuse to enforce the trespassing law on the south shore of Nova Scotia in the Halifax regional municipality, where there is jurisdiction, but instead threaten the victims of the crime being committed?

[C/Supt Sue Black]

Thank you for the question, Chair.

I am aware of the member's assertions. I want to assure the committee that I was quite concerned when I heard about them. I did some research, and this is what I found. We searched our databases for trespassing occurrences related to elver fishing. Since January 2023, we found six complaints. We followed up on all of them. In four out of the six instances, we attended personally to the call.

It's important to note that trespassing at night, under section 177 in the Criminal Code, is a summary conviction offence. For any enforcement action to be taken, that would mean that we would have to find them committing it.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I would suggest that your record-keeping is weak. I do know that a third of the jobs in your call centre aren't filled. The issue is that these folks were phoning every night, unless you're saying that they are misleading the media and me as to what's going on.

I would ask that you enforce the trespassing law. These rivers are full of people with illegal firearms, and no one has been charged with having illegal firearms. I would suggest that the RCMP has to do a better job of enforcing those basic laws.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Mallette.

Several weeks or maybe months ago, the industry discussed certain tools that could be available to you for such things as traceability. Other jurisdictions, including Maine, have adopted an approach that allows for eel tracing. Can you tell us if this is being done elsewhere and explain to us how we could implement the same traceability process here for the elver fishery?

[Dominic Mallette]

Mr. Chair, the traceability of elvers isn't the responsibility of the Canada Border Services Agency. The only tools I'm aware of were used by the CBSA to identify

elvers in boxes of lobster or other boxes at the airport, so that cannot speak to traceability for elver in the industry.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I want to make sure that we fully understand the scope of what's going on at the moment. Right now, fishing is illegal. If someone tried to export elvers, how would you stop that from happening?

You said earlier that it's impossible to monitor all shipments, but how are you going to make sure that doesn't happen?

[Dominic Mallette]

Mr. Chair, if we find undeclared elvers, whether at the Halifax airport or the Toronto airport, we have the authority to seize them. If they are declared under the Export and Import Permits Act, all we can do is

a referral, I guess, to CFIA to see what authorities they may have to seize those or otherwise.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay.

Ms. Black, in recent weeks, has the RCMP made any arrests or seizures on rivers or waterways in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick or elsewhere?

[C/Supt Sue Black]

Thank you for the question.

The RCMP's primary mandate is public safety and conducting investigations into Criminal Code offences.

Anything to do with violations of the Fisheries Act falls to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Were arrests made anyway?

[C/Supt Sue Black]

With regard to any arrests that were made in relation to infractions of the Fisheries Act, I can't speak to that, but from an RCMP perspective, whenever there's a nexus to the elver situation or issue, if we are asked for assistance and if we investigate Criminal Code offences that are related, then we would make the arrests. The most recent arrests would have occurred on March 16, subsequent to a request for assistance from DFO for our help in managing Criminal Code offences that were related to their enforcement action with regard to the Fisheries Act.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

That doesn't really answer my question, but I understand what your responsibilities are.

Mr. Mallette, let's talk more about the tools you have to trace elvers. What tools would you need right now to do your job properly? Do you already have them or do you need other tools so we don't end up in the same situation as in recent years?

[Dominic Mallette]

Thank you for your question.

We do have the tools to trace elvers. We can use X-ray machines to scan boxes of lobsters or elvers to see if there are actually elvers inside. We have the equipment to do that.

That said, we still have to deal with the issue of traceability, which is not our responsibility. Our responsibility is to identify elvers at the time of export, if necessary.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Ms. Black, I'm going back to you. I'm not sure if you can answer this.

The RCMP still knows what's going on, on the ground. With what you saw happening last year, do you think we could have had a safe season this year, if there had been an open season of elver fishing?

[C/Supt Sue Black]

I don't think I can project the future state. Our agency doesn't have a direct mandate with the Fisheries Act. We're focused on Criminal Code offences.

I assume the question could be answered by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, in terms of their risk assessments surrounding this decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here. It's always valuable to have people with their expertise here. We gain a better understanding of the critical situation that hits honest fishers hardest because they're the ones who end up without a job. That's extremely troubling. I have met with fishers who have worked so hard to develop this market for over 20 years, and now they've been left high and dry, so to speak.

How can we save honest fishers—let's call them that—and quickly solve a number of problems and reopen this fishery next year, say? Do you have a timeline in mind?

I'm not sure who this question should go to. I might not be asking the right person. Maybe one or two of the witnesses can answer.

I know these people are listening to us today. They can stop fishing for a year; their financial situation allows them to wait until next year. However, without a short or medium-term solution in sight, this lucrative industry will be in quite a bind.

These people are making sacrifices now to eliminate the illegal elver fishery. Do you think they can look forward to resuming their activities soon?

I don't see anyone jumping in here.

[Dominic Mallette]

Maybe that question is better put to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans than to CBSA.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

At this point in time, are the tools at your disposal sufficient to do assessments, impose constraints, conduct investigations and even arrest offenders? Do you have enough financial, technical and human resources on the ground?

[Dominic Mallette]

I can answer that.

If regulations allowed us to enforce the act, that would help. If permits were required for either importing or exporting, that would help us combat the problem. Export permits aren't required at this point. That's something that would really help us.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

That's one thing you'd like to see. That would enable traceability. That's actually the key to traceability. When there is an export or import permit, people can trace the origin and destination of the products. I understand. There should be regulations for issuing permits.

It looks like offenders have the upper hand. Could the regulations be stricter and the fines stiffer?

That's what I've always recommended because I think it's a good idea. That's what we do for some of these things in Quebec.

Could the committee recommend imposing stiffer fines and returning that revenue to the security system to pay for better tools and equipment? Would that be helpful? Is that wishful thinking?

[Dr. Parthi Muthukumarasamy]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That question is more appropriate for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

However, we are working closely with DFO in their development of regulations. They're working through that. I believe DFO has plans to regulate the possession and export of elvers, in terms of permitting and controlling any illegal fisheries.

From an agency perspective, we have a number of tools when we see non-compliance, including cancelling licences to operate—for example, in food establishments—administrative monetary penalties, prosecution, etc., and we take action when our regulations and legislation are not complied with.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.