Fisheries Committee on March 19th, 2024

[Dominic Mallette]

Similarly, the regulations that we believe may come into force sometime in the future will certainly help the CBSA.

In the meantime, we do have access to regulatory options of enforcement comprising fines under the Customs Act or criminal prosecution when the act is contravened, but we haven't come across that in recent times.

We're looking, and we are ready to fully exercise our authorities when the time comes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

There are only three seconds left on your clock, so we'll move on to the next questioner.

We have Ms. Barron for six minutes or less.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

My first question is for Mr. Mallette from CBSA.

We had the deputy minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Ms. Annette Gibbons, recently at the committee. She was speaking to the committee about how not opening the elver fishery in 2024 would make it impossible to launder or mix legally and illegally caught elvers.

I'm wondering if, in your role, you can provide your thoughts about whether this closure that's happening will make it easier for the Canada Border Services Agency to prevent the export of illegally caught elvers. Could you speak to this comment that was made?

[Dominic Mallette]

Thank you for the question.

It's difficult to answer. I haven't read that statement by the deputy minister. I'm not sure whether, even if the fishery is closed, legally and illegally caught elvers won't get mixed. I think the problem remains.

I'm not sure if I answered your question.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I was as confused by it as you were, so thank you for confirming that. Perhaps I'll dig a little deeper into that.

I'm wondering if you can share what you feel is needed. What is the most effective tool that could be put into place to help CBSA identify illegal elvers crossing the border?

[Dominic Mallette]

I'll go back to my previous answer to this.

If we had a proper regulatory regime in place and a permit requirement, it would help us tremendously in identifying illegal shipments and give us the authority to actively pursue non-compliance.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Mr. Mallette, I'll continue with you.

You spoke about the licences. Now you're speaking about regulatory practices and so on. I'm wondering if you could share a bit more about how CBSA would enforce these licences and what would be needed by CBSA to operationalize a system of licences in order to ensure unlicensed elvers are not crossing the border.

[Dominic Mallette]

Presumably, as with any other commodity, if permits were required by law, they would have to be submitted to the CBSA upon export. We would presumably have a copy of that permit available to us for verification and could react accordingly, should there not be a permit included in the export transaction or submission.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

To clarify, Mr. Mallette, is there something specific the committee should be aware of—a resource, a tool, funding, supports or training? Is there something specific you can share that CBSA may require through this change, if this is implemented?

[Dominic Mallette]

I'll answer that by saying that if permits were, in fact, required and the law provided for them to be submitted to the CBSA, I suspect system enhancement on the CBSA side could help validate the presence of the permit in the system in order to expedite the validation process.

Therefore, perhaps system enhancements...once the permit is legally required to be submitted.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

My next question is for Chief Superintendent Black.

Ms. Black, I would like to just read for you a portion of an email that was sent to me by an elver harvester. Perhaps you can provide some comment on it because it particularly touched me to hear these words. It says:

In the past, our safety procedures simply involved wearing a lifejacket, wearing the proper wet gear, carrying a flashlight, fishing in pairs etc.

Now our safety is jeopardized every night—

They go on to say this:

—because of the complete lack of enforcement of IUU elver fishing

Last season we called both C&P and RCMP when [we] were confronted by poachers and no response, from either. I cannot over state the...frustration (and bewilderment) when we had NO response from law enforcement!

This lawlessness and lack of enforcement has undermined my sense of safety in my workplace.

The last thing she says is this:

Just imagine if someone entered your office, stole your laptop, destroyed it, yelled at you, left their garbage all over your office—and you called the police and they refused to come. AND then you lose your job and your income is given to the perpetrator.

I thought this was a really important example of the impacts.

I'm wondering if you can provide some thoughts around this email that I received, please.

[C/Supt Sue Black]

Thank you for your question.

It's important to note, as I stated in my opening remarks, that it's about mandate. The RCMP's mandate is focused on public safety and the enforcement of Criminal Code offences. With regard to harvesting, conservation and protection of Canada's freshwater and green fisheries, that falls to the mandate of DFO. It also falls to the DFO for enforcement of alleged or actual violations of the Fisheries Act.

Where we get reports of Criminal Code activity, we will respond. We do respond and investigate appropriately.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for coming out today and taking part in this study.

Mr. Mallette, I heard you say that there's no proper regulatory regime in place.

DFO has known about the catastrophe in the elver fishery for the last 10 years. Wouldn't you think that this would be enough time for a regime to be put in place that could straighten all this out?

[Dominic Mallette]

I don't think I said there's no proper regulatory regime. I think enhancing the current regime would help.

Second, I think this question would be much better answered by DFO.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Do you think DFO has failed the elver fishery?

[Dominic Mallette]

I can't comment on that.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

You have no comment.

Twenty times more elvers were exported last year than there was a quota for. Was the quota amount flagged to you?

[Dominic Mallette]

I've heard that statement made before. I have not verified it, to be honest. I hear a lot of statistics being shared.

One challenge that does exist for us is that elvers and eels are both identified using the same code, which is called an HS code in the system, so I'm cautious about trying to discuss statistics, because we're not counting the same things.

I think one enhancement that could be made—and I believe DFO is currently working on this—is to create a specific HS code to differentiate between eels and elvers, which will fix some of the data.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Mallette, is the export of elvers currently banned? Is there an export ban right now?

[Dominic Mallette]

There is no export ban on elvers that are imported from outside of Canada. There is a ban on elvers that are fished within Canadian territory.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

How good is your math inside your organization on calculating how many elvers are coming in from other countries to be transshipped versus what's going out?

Obviously, last year there must have been some kind of a mismatch.

[Dominic Mallette]

I can't comment on that without looking the numbers, to be honest, and analyzing the numbers.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Would you be able to provide the committee with some written testimony on that?

[Dominic Mallette]

We can certainly look at the data and provide you what's available to us that would be reasonable to answer the question, yes.