Fisheries Committee on March 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Minister. I am glad to see you and your colleagues.

I think climate change is a catch-all excuse. We heard about the owner-operator model earlier. I can tell you that it is not just shrimp that are becoming extinct; owner-operators are too.

The fisheries are in crisis. In the Bloc Québécois, we obviously speak for Quebec fishers. The plants are closing down, there is no openness to the idea of licence buy-backs, the quotas are insufficient, and the proportion allocated to offshore trawlers is of great concern since that is what contributed to the decline in the resources 30 years ago.

Do you and your colleague, the Minister of Immigration, think that creating a crisis unit is an option to be considered in order to quickly remedy the foreign workers situation and apply measures to prevent bankruptcies? There are boats for sale but no one will buy them if there is no fishery.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

First, I do not agree with your premise that climate change is a catch-all excuse. This year, we saw that there is no ice in the St. Lawrence River and the gulf and on the east coast, which is catastrophic—

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

We have seen that coming for a long time, and investments in oil do not help to combat climate change.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

—and this year it is different. I come from the Gaspé and this is the first year there has been no ice, and it is because of climate change.

As you said, yes, species are endangered. That is the case for capelin, smelt, mackerel, herring and shrimp, and there will be others. The gulf is in a unique situation. We have seen the effects of climate change in Newfoundland and Labrador and in Nova Scotia, where the temperature has risen by 1.7°C or 1.9°C. These changes will mean that the gulf is going to continue to warm.

So I think the important thing is to stay in touch with the people in the fishing industry and find different ways of fishing. Some species are going to disappear and others will reappear, and we will have to know how to manage this. We are in a transition period at present. I think the important thing is to stay in touch with the sector and continue to work together.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

I agree with you on some issues. Climate change is not something new this year. We have been talking about it for some years, since 2015, according to Mr. Hardie. I am sure that we have been talking about it around this table since at least then, and that it has been much longer than that, in fact.

In reality, the department must be one of the first to have read about the repercussions of climate change we are seeing today. As a result, the word "predictability" is a fundamental, strategic word. It has to be at the forefront of what each of your employees in the department does. We are focused on it now, and we have the feeling that predictability does not seem to have been a factor in your department. We have seen this repeatedly on the part of the witnesses we have heard. I do not hold that against you, because you have not been in this department for very long.

However, based on the facts, I would reiterate that we are in a crisis. First, we have plants closing down. Workers are not coming in as planned. We have confirmation that in Quebec, the workers had been recognized and identified and were ready to come and work. We have to get down to this quickly, before more plants close. If that happens, it means people out of work who will not even be eligible for employment insurance. It will be over for some of them in a week.

I think we are in a crisis. The industry is calling for a crisis unit that you would be part of, along with the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, owners-operators and plants. You could work together on how to respond to the crisis. I would like to have an answer, please.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I can tell you that I have been fully engaged in this issue for several years. You are entirely correct when it comes to predictability. I do not think there is shrimp fishing where you live, but there is where I live. As I said, four years ago, we were doing everything possible to keep the same shrimp quotas. I went through that as an MP. Quotas are part of the discussions I have had with the industry. Even though we listened to the industry, this year, we would have liked to keep the same shrimp quotas.

In the discussions I have on the ground, I realize that fishers are not necessarily aware of all this information, even though the associations receive the information. There is therefore work to be done on ways of collaborating so that the information percolates through the industry.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I have ten seconds left.

Can I hope that we can create—call it what you will—a crisis unit, whatever, to get out of where we are stuck right now: the lack of temporary foreign workers?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

We had all the temporary foreign workers we needed, and the Quebec government has made repeated requests, but we now find ourselves in a crisis because we are unable to bring in the Mexican workers to our plants, even though, for almost a year, the processing plants were prepared to bring them in over the next few years.

We know that the population outside our urban centres is aging. Where I live, the average age in the plants is 60. We even have workers who are 70 and 72 years old.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

My time is up, Minister. That has nothing to do with what I wanted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome to the minister and, of course, to the department officials who are here today.

First of all, I want to acknowledge and thank you for bringing up the letter that I had sent to you relating to the questions that MP Arnold was asking, urging you to provide a detailed response to BCWF's urgent request to treat the problem of invasive species in British Columbia with the seriousness it deserves. I'm looking back at letters that they had sent around. I see November, December and February, and then of course my letter followed in March.

I'm not going to dig into it any more, because I have other things I want to ask, but I just want to ask this: Will you be providing a very clear response and plan forward to treat this problem that B.C. is now experiencing as a result of a lack of funding and a lack of attention that needed to be paid to it?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Ms. Barron, I really want to thank you for your question. I have only recently been with the department and I am going to let Ms. Gibbons give you the information.

I also want to tell you that I met the Ambassador of France last week. In Nice, in 2025, there will be a meeting on oceans and on the agenda we will be able to talk about invasive species and how we can deal—

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Minister, I'm sorry to interrupt you. It's just that I have other questions that I need to get to.

Can you just tell me if they'll be getting a response in the near future that clearly articulates the plan for it? I'd then like to move on to the next question.

I do appreciate the details, but not right now.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Yes, we are going to get you an answer in the near future.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you so much.

Minister, I know that the Prime Minister had provided a mandate to your predecessor, former minister Murray, with a clear mandate to transition away from open-net pen fish farms by 2025. I'm wondering if you could please share whether this mandate has changed. Are there any updates on this mandate that I should be aware of?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Yes, I am very aware of the fish farm issue. Do you have another question for me?

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

No, I was asking if the mandate that the Prime Minister had provided for you to transition away by 2025 had changed.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

As I have said publicly, I was in British Columbia in December, to meet with industry people. In the consultations—

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

It sounds like the mandate from the Prime Minister is still the same.

I know that the consultation process, and the ability to give input around this process, has ended. I'm wondering if you can tell me how many times the department has consulted with the Norwegian-owned companies operating open-net pen finfish farms in Canadian waters. How many times has the consultation process included those from these Norwegian-based companies?

[Annette Gibbons]

We would have very detailed records of all the consultation phases. We're happy to provide that to you.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Okay, thank you.

Through an Order Paper question that was dated and received on November 2, I can let you know that there have been 52 times when the main operating companies Mowi, Grieg and Cermaq have all been consulted to date. The reason I'm asking is that I'm curious to know how many more times they have been consulted since November 2.

Thank you, Ms. Gibbons.

In a conversation I had yesterday with the Namgis chief, Chief Ho'miskanis—his English name is Chief Don Svanvik—he discussed with me a meeting that he recently had with the DFO lead of Pacific aquaculture transition, Andrea Cyr, where he, along with other Broughton Archipelago first nation chiefs, was told that the plan forward is a renewal of two-year to six-year licences prior to a transition plan even being tabled.

Minister, could you please clarify if this is accurate information?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

What I can say is that we are currently holding consultations. In fact, people from my team are going to be in British Columbia next week. At present, nothing has been decided; we are holding discussions.

Personally, the way I work is this: I want everything to be on the table, I want to have discussions in order to get the best plan. It will not be a definitive transition plan, but we have to have a temporary transition plan we can work on before getting to a permanent plan, in 2025.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

Are you aware of the renewal of licences for two to six years that is being articulated to chiefs in British Columbia?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Yes, I am aware of that. Last fall, we were talking about zero to ten years. At present, what people are proposing to us is two to six years. That is part of the discussions and I am aware of it.