Evidence of meeting #11 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was habitat.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Hardie.
We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes, please.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
I will ask a brief question and will then leave the rest of my time to Ms. May.
If my understanding is correct, all the witnesses are showing us that there is a lack of cohesion and coordination among the various levels of government, organizations on the ground, first nations and the closest stakeholders.
Ms. Gower, can you tell me whether it is possible for emergency preparedness to get organized? Could the two levels of government implement something to better use the money that will be given to us?
12:15 p.m.
Science and Policy Advisor, Watershed Watch Salmon Society
Yes, and we are asking to be involved in those planning stages. In fact, we've been working together to provide suggestions on how this planning can unfold. We think that the only way this can happen successfully is to include all of our voices and international best practice and examples from other jurisdictions.
We're concerned that there's just too much happening too quickly with the spending and decisions and that we really need to take a step back and put some strategic thought into our actions and include the wider ideas in the community, because it's only through collaboration that we can make the best decisions in including all of the information. Yes, we want to see you moving forward with a more collaborative decision-making process that's more inclusive.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
12:15 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Thank you.
Very briefly with one minute, I want to turn this question to Kevin Estrada from the Fraser Valley Angling Guides because of the way you describe being out on the ground in that toxic mess trying to rescue fish in a situation like that and your volunteers working around the clock. Have you had, other than with this committee, significant outreach to ask you what the lessons learned are and what we can do at the federal level to better collaborate to assist an organization and the individual heros in the situation like you?
12:15 p.m.
Director, Fraser Valley Angling Guides Association
No, we haven't had anybody reach out. Obviously we've had some talks with our local MP, Mr. Strahl, on the impacts and where to go in the future, but nobody from the province has reached out on a plan for the future, what that looks like and then how we can learn from it. Again, this is why we're here. It's an opportunity and it's probably a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for us to prepare for the next generation to make sure that the next volunteers and those involved in helping don't have to go through as much, the big impacts that we've had and the hurdles to make sure that we did things as well as we could. Again, it's a testament to this committee, and thank you for having us here today.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
12:20 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you, Chair.
I just want to comment on the term letsemot that was mentioned by Kwilosintun. I think that's so important: Everything is connected. What a great foundational lesson for us and everything that we're doing here today as a committee. Thank you for sharing that.
The question I was hoping to ask is directed to Ms. Morten. We know that there tends to be a higher price tag attached to green infrastructure or fish-friendly infrastructure. Could you speak a little bit to that initial investment? This may seen evident, but from your experience, what do you think are some of the positives that we would get back in response to that initial investment?
12:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Pacific Streamkeepers Federation
Well, making something anew or restored is always more expensive than allowing nature to bring things in. If we allow the streams and rivers to function on their own, they'll bring in their own wood and their own gravel, rather than you and I having to hump it in on a four-by-four. If we allow the fish to do their thing, they will actually keep the infrastructure clean. Chum salmon are wonderful about cleaning out an area, so they will provide a great service for us, providing we do it correctly.
I would like to note that a lot of the things that were done under the emergency works were not fish friendly and were being done with the infrastructure that was available. MoTI, I understand, ran out of culverts. Maybe the culverts are not the correct ones. When we do things and we do them greener, maybe we can pull out those old culverts and reuse them in a more appropriate place.
12:20 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you, Ms. Morten.
I also had a question for Ms. Gower.
Ms. Gower, I know that the Watershed Watch Salmon Society has come to speak with us many times over the years. I'm thinking specifically about 2016, when Lina Azeez referred to a “salmon and dike fund as an interim measure” and the importance of that measure “until fish-friendly flood control practices become the norm through legislation and policy”. This is something that has been talked about for a while. We're hearing it again today.
I'm wondering if you could speak to perhaps any movement you've seen on the importance of this funding being put into place for fish-friendly flood control practices.
12:20 p.m.
Science and Policy Advisor, Watershed Watch Salmon Society
The short answer is that we haven't seen really any movement towards such a thing as a salmon and dike fund, but the other part of my response is that the landscape for these conversations has significantly shifted now that we're talking about such a major investment in flood control, and now, with the amendments to the Fisheries Act in 2019, we heard at the last meeting of this study from a senior fisheries manager that there's no going back in terms of doing things the old way. That gives me hope. I think that maybe the conversations on the salmon and dike fund were pre-November floods. That was our response because we were getting a lot of questions and resistance about how to do things in a new way.
Since that time, we've also learned that doing things in a fish-friendly manner isn't necessarily more expensive. It just involves using different suppliers and learning about the different technologies. Rather than having an add-on salmon and dike fund, where we give extra money to incorporate technology that people aren't used to, I think the [Technical difficulty—Editor] ensure that that technology is incorporated into all our decisions at every location as part of the new infrastructure spending.
12:25 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you very much.
If I have more time, I have another question, for Mr. McNeil.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
No. Actually, you've gone a minute over, so you got extra time on that one.
We'll now go to Mr. Zimmer for five minutes or less, please. I want to try to finish out the full second round of questioning before we go in camera.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First, I have a question for Kevin and Jason.
First of all, Kevin, I know a lot of the anglers in the Fraser Valley, and I know that they were part of the effort, along with my colleague Mr. Strahl. My questions lead from where Mark was coming from. Was DFO part of the effort at all during the floods?
12:25 p.m.
Director, Fraser Valley Angling Guides Association
No. Outside of a permit for us to move fish [Technical difficulty—Editor] from DFO.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Did DFO organize the ground efforts in any way?
12:25 p.m.
Director, Fraser Valley Angling Guides Association
No, we did that through two command centres, one in Yale and one in Chilliwack, and organized everybody to attend to where fish were and the animals, people and so on.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Okay. Thanks, Kevin.
In looking at the estimates and at what's been in the past budgets, we've seen a dramatic increase in the funding of DFO, up to over $5 billion, yet to me it's alarming that with all that money expended, we see little or no effort especially to aid and assist you, who are on the ground actually doing the work.
For clarity for the committee for today, you mentioned that you weren't compensated. Were any of the anglers compensated in any way for their efforts?
12:25 p.m.
Director, Fraser Valley Angling Guides Association
We received a small amount of money from the province to deal with the sturgeon recovery specifically around Barrowtown. We did get some small donations from people who heard that we needed fuel and so on and so forth. We've paid out no money for time.
We had a lot of our members.... Some of our members are RCMP and firemen, and federal employees as well, and they were taking time off work to help their community. A lot of our members did everything they could, knowing that after that first week there was no help and we just needed to make a bigger plan for the weeks ahead. Obviously, it was emotional for us to see what went through and what we did, but it was also very good to see.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
I will ask Kevin, but Jason and Murray can pipe in too. I guess what I'm puzzled by is that there were 21 days of effort and fuel, and I've heard of the wear and tear on the boats, etc., yet DFO seems to be absent.
I'm speaking to anglers here, and I know you'll relate to what I'm going to say next. We used to see a great relationship between DFO and local anglers. I've seen the research and data from the 1990s to the 2000s where DFO and anglers worked together with tagging and developing practices in fishing, where mortality rates dropped dramatically.
We've seen this previous good relationship between the two groups, and yet today, considering all the efforts that the anglers have put in into the local waters, we see an often deaf Department of Fishers and Oceans when it comes to concerns around those anglers.
We're asking for openings in the Lower Mainland. The anglers are asking the Department of Fisheries and Oceans for different things, so maybe I'll throw it back to you: Has the relationship between DFO and local anglers been a good one over the last six years?
12:25 p.m.
Director, Fraser Valley Angling Guides Association
From my perspective, we have a good relationship with enforcement. We work with it very closely, but outside of that, we largely go unheard.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
When the data was provided that openings could happen in the Fraser Valley last year and this year, and even the year prior, and based on evidence from the SFAB, etc., are you expecting DFO to listen to anglers a bit better than that?
12:30 p.m.
Director, Fraser Valley Angling Guides Association
It would be an expectation, yes, but based on past history, I'm not confident that we and the residents of British Columbia are going to be heard. But again, there's always hope for the future.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Yes, and maybe that's where I'm going to finish up here.