Fisheries Committee on May 9th, 2024

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I want to say that closing a fishery is never a nice thing. It's a tough decision to make because we know it has an impact on the communities that depend on that fishery.

Our data show that 132 individuals were arrested and 21 vehicles and 350 pounds of elvers were seized, along with 150 fyke nets and 249 dip nets. Elvers sell for $5,000 a pound. For some people, that's a huge incentive to break the law and the rules and jeopardize this resource for the next few years. My goal was to protect the resource as well as people and fishers so things can be done properly.

We're on the ground and we want to get it right. The message I want to convey is this: There must be no illegal elver fishing. We need rules. We need to be able to trace the product. We need to be able to ensure the safety of people who are fishing responsibly.

To achieve that, we had to put a moratorium on the elver fishery for another year. We will follow best practices. We discussed it in Portland when we met with the people in Maine, who have also faced this challenge. As I said, we're going to do what it takes to ensure that the elver fishery can happen properly in 2025.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

The fact is that you seize somebody's truck, and there might be a fine. However, when they can go out and make $5,000 per night illegally fishing, in three nights they can buy a pretty decent used truck again. I think that is the attitude that we see in a lot of areas where enforcement and penalties don't necessarily correspond with the value of the activity of the people who are prepared to break the law.

Are you dealing with the Minister of Justice and Attorney General and with the authorities in the Atlantic provinces to get people through the court system better, to bring in some heftier penalties for doing this? There has to be a point at which it has to hurt enough that they're going to find something else to do. Is that activity under way?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I'm working with several colleagues. I get quotes from elver fishers. People were talking about Stanley King, who told the Toronto Star that the department had stepped up its actions and that poaching was down this year. Another elver fisher, Mike Townsend, told CBC/Radio-Canada that he was satisfied with what he was seeing this year and that the department was doing regular patrols.

We're working on it. The provincial government, the federal government and various departments are working to ensure that the fishery is sustainable and safe and that we can ensure product traceability.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Now we did hear—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm sorry, Mr. Hardie. Your time is up.

We'll now go to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for two and a half minutes, please.

I'll remind members to please not talk over the people who are talking or are recognized to speak.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Minister, I have a bit of a headache. Earlier, you said that the small craft harbours program was important, but I notice its funding has been cut dramatically. Approximately $2.4 million was allocated to the program in the 2023-24 budget, but that amount dropped to $750,000 for the 2024-25 fiscal year.

As you said, your riding accounts for 33% of Quebec's fishing economy. If this program is important to you, why has its funding been cut so much? It's a vital program for port and marine infrastructure.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

There was no budget cut. There's almost half a billion dollars in the upcoming budget. We've always made significant investments.

To get back to what you were saying about Gaspé, it's important not to mix up industrial port zones, which are federal ports governed by Transport Canada, with small craft harbours.

Regarding what was done at DFO, yes, some ports were closed, because we work with ports where there's commercial fishing. That's where we're making investments.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I'll carry on with my questions, Minister, but I'd still like you to provide the committee with a written response from your department, because this information is from the Library of Parliament. Maybe somebody isn't telling us the truth. It could be the analysts, your department or you, yourself. It's important to check the data, because it says here that funding for this program is being reduced to $750,000 for the 2024-25 fiscal year.

Ms. Gibbons, why are dulse fishers, palmaria palmate fishers, subject to different criteria in southern New Brunswick than in Quebec? Many of them have told us they're afraid of being fined because the regulations aren't the same everywhere.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

You're not talking about a number of people. I think you're talking about one person.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I'm talking about palmaria palmata, Madam Minister. This person, whom you must know well, since she lives in your riding, says that she is concerned and finds it unfair that the regulations in southern New Brunswick are not the same as those in Quebec.

Madam Deputy Minister, are algae in Quebec different from algae in southern New Brunswick?

[Annette Gibbons]

I can't give you a specific answer.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Could you provide us with an answer in writing, please?

[Annette Gibbons]

This can be explained by the fact that the provinces have different responsibilities for algae, but I would have to get back to you with a precise answer.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I am following up on a question that I asked at a previous meeting. I'm unable to see that a response has come in. Perhaps if you have responded you can tell me what it is, but I'm not able to find one.

My question was around the first nations caucus within the Pacific Salmon Commission. Specifically, the first nations caucus, I'm being told, is not being provided adequate funding to be able to take on the role that is needed in order to fulfill why the first nations caucus is there: It was to be able to get elders physically to the meetings and to get people contributing to the capacity they need to ensure the amount of consultation with indigenous people within the nations is being done.

I'm wondering what is being done to ensure the first nations caucus within the Pacific Salmon Commission has adequate funding to be able to do the important work that they are being assigned to do.

[Annette Gibbons]

We have a lot of different programming that is intended to provide support to our indigenous partners to participate in processes. I think there's always a negotiation of what the amounts are, because there are so many different issues that we're involved with in so many communities. I'd be happy to take that back and provide you with a little more detail.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I for sure would like to get that information. I will tell you that I have people who are reaching out, who are consistently worried about the fact that we have indigenous people who are being asked to contribute but who aren't being provided with adequate funding to be able to do so. This is a big issue that needs to be mitigated.

We've had witnesses here recently talking to us about the Alaskan interception of salmon. We know we have the lowest returns on record for many salmon populations across British Columbia. We're at a critical point for managing this keystone species. Witnesses have indicated to us that the Pacific Salmon Treaty is failing to meet the core principles of preventing overfishing and ensuring that each party—Canada and the U.S.—receives benefits equal to the salmon originating in the waters. We know that this treaty is up for renewal in 2028. However, urgent action is required now. We know the waters are warming. We know that migratory patterns are changing as a result and that they will not be able to fully get through migratory routes that are in place.

What is being done to ensure that we are working with our U.S. partners to ensure that our salmon are being protected?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Perhaps we should get that in writing, because we've gone over time for your questioning by about 22 seconds.

The next name I have is Mr. Bragdon, but he's not here.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

No, it's Mr. Small.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We have interpretation only until 5:30.

Mr. Small, you're up for five minutes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, in October of last year, the minister assessed northern cod as being out of the critical zone and into the cautious zone and she said it has been so since 2016. One fish processor in Newfoundland and Labrador who relies solely on codfish to run his operation told me that, as a result, eight years of opportunity to have higher cod quotas has been lost. He's had to rely heavily on imported Norwegian cod. The FFAW has asked you to increase the northern cod quota from 13,000 tonnes to 25,000 tonnes, and the Atlantic Groundfish Council has asked for that quota to be increased to 26,000 tonnes.

Will you agree to either of these requests to increase the quota on northern cod in the upcoming season—yes or no, Minister?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

As I mentioned, we were waiting until the end of March to have the most recent scientific data. We'll make a decision soon, but we will certainly be in the cautious zone.

We lived through the 30‑year moratorium on cod fishing, so things are bound to go well and, as I said, this species will be prevented from being properly protected over my dead body.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

I think you said you're waiting until the end of March. Well, we're a little bit beyond that. That was over a month ago.

In the recent stock assessment, it was revealed that once again last year the sentinel fishery for northern cod showed no improvement. You rely on data from the sentinel fishery. According to an order paper question that I received an answer to, the data from the stewardship fishery wasn't even analyzed for four years, and yet, you took this sentinel data.

I wonder if your department has ever questioned why the same fisherman in the sentinel fishery goes out and gets 20 fish out of a net on Monday and then goes out on Tuesday and gets 300 fish out of the same net.

Have you ever questioned the validity of the data you've received, for which you pay $704,000 a year, that shuts down the cod fishery and denies opportunity to fish harvesters?

Have you questioned the validity of the sentinel northern cod fishery?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I want to start by answering your first question. I was waiting for the scientific data at the end of March. It then takes some time to compile the data, but we should have an answer for the cod fishery shortly.

However, I can tell you that all the fishers' associations want to participate in building the fisheries of the future and want to work with Fisheries and Oceans Canada. So we're going to get it right. With climate change—