Evidence of meeting #118 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Just to clarify again, Mr. Chair, because in some committees we have a problem with this: If we vote yes, we support the chair's decision, and if we vote no, we don't support the chair's decision.
Is that right?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Okay, I'll ask the clerk to record the vote.
(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 4)
Liberal
Liberal
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, that was refreshing.
I will comment on a couple of comments that were made in that roundabout.
Mr. Kelloway said, “We're trying to get this done, so let's get to it and let's get it done.” Let's get it done efficiently and effectively. There was less than four hours notice given of who the witnesses were going to be here today—and I thank the four for being here today; we appreciate your work. I took offence to the chair saying that we're wasting your time, because I think it's valuable that you hear from us as well; it's not just our questioning time.
We need to do this efficiently and effectively. To review an act of Parliament, we deserve, and Canadians deserve, that it be done efficiently and effectively. To rush through something and not have questions prepared.... We didn't believe this study was coming up until, I believe, November, which would have given us a lot of time to review the current act and to hear from witnesses who may or may not want to appear. I spoke earlier about witnesses who did not want their names mentioned when they appeared at this committee for fear of retribution.
If we're going to review the act and, as Mr. Kelloway said, get it done—I would say “Let's bring it home”—we owe it to Canadians to do it efficiently and effectively. Mr. Kelloway's approach was to just plow through this. We've seen the results of decisions of the successive ministers to just plow through a process while not taking the time to look at questions, look at answers and look at reasons. We've seen cases where the decisions have been challenged in court. Decisions of this government's ministers have been challenged and they've lost, or the decisions have had to be stepped back. If we're going to review an act, let's do it effectively and efficiently. To plow through and rush through something—
Liberal
Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.
I never said “plow”. I said, “Let's get to work.” Parliamentarians do that. I know maybe some wanted the day off, but just for the record, no one said, “plow”, so let's stick to the facts and stop the hyperbole, please.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.
I hope that goes both ways, because I was a little offended hearing that we were wasting someone's time here. I prefer not to waste anyone's time, especially my own time, at this committee. That's why we have, as members, typically focused on the reports. I've heard from members in this room—and previous members—how they appreciated that I did my homework on all of these reports, each and every time we've done a report. They've said, “You've done your homework. You've come prepared. We thank you for your thoughtfulness and your work in producing recommendations and in finding what needs to be pointed out while we're doing these reports.” That is why I'm very focused today on making sure we do an efficient and effective job of reviewing the Fisheries Act.
As I stated, we've put out numerous reports. I'll go back to the May 28, 2019 report on the impact of the rapid increase of striped bass in the Miramichi River and the Gulf of St. Lawrence. There were recommendations in that report to address the rapidly increasing populations of striped bass because of the impacts they were potentially having on Atlantic salmon. We toured Atlantic salmon hatcheries. We toured Atlantic salmon rivers where the salmon are basically non-existent. We heard how the striped bass populations have exploded in the Miramichi. From what we heard, they are gobbling up all the fry and smolts as they migrate out. We've seen pictures of striped bass full of salmon fry and small lobsters.
The department took drastic measures to reduce the harvest of striped bass years ago, and took them in a fairly short time frame. I believe I said that report came out on May 28, 2019. We're now five years past that and still hearing about a striped bass problem on the east coast, especially in the Miramichi River—five years to take action. While there has been moderate action taken, it's still a problem for that fishery and for the recovery of Atlantic salmon in that river. Reports of the abundance of striped bass in that fishery are incredible. Recreational fishermen have no problem catching them, and I'm glad to see that the department and the minister have decided to look at increasing opportunities for indigenous harvesters to harvest some of those striped bass.
That is why we need to know what actions have and haven't been taken. Those actions should have been taken under the sections of the act that allow them to be taken. Were they taken? If they weren't, why not? If the actions that were taken weren't effective, why not? If the actions weren't able to be taken because of something in the act, why not? We heard that multiple times.
We just finished hearing witness testimony about the Yukon River salmon situation and the actions local members have taken. Local first nations and indigenous on both the U.S. and Canadian sides of the border have curtailed all their fishing for seven years.
However, we heard that this is only in the non-tidal areas of the river. The government has not undertaken the diplomatic work to address bycatch or the potential interception by other fisheries or international harvesters that may be taking those fish before they ever get a chance to return to the river.
Again, this is not a new problem with the Yukon salmon, both chinook and chum, that are especially valuable to the people there. These issues have been going on for years, yet after nine years, we see very little action taken by this government.
We did a report on west coast salmon. I believe it was Mr. Hardie who put forward that motion to take a look at west coast salmon. A lot of the issues and the recommendations in that report could also be applied to the Yukon salmon. Why weren't actions taken?
We've heard that the Marine Mammal Protection Act has an effect on actions that Canada might be able to take on management of pinnipeds within Canada. Our U.S. counterparts have managed to work around the issue and restore the Columbia River salmon runs—not all of them, but a large number. They have steelhead returning in the Columbia River system in the U.S. because they've done hatchery work down there. They've done enhancement work. They've also done targeted, very specific management measures of pinnipeds at the pinch points along that river and the results have been amazing.
However, Canada hasn't taken those actions. We can only assume that it's because either the minister or the Prime Minister's Office doesn't want those actions taken or there may be items in the act that are preventing those actions from being taken.
I had a pretty good review of the act when it was revised years ago. That was in my first years, in the 42nd Parliament, I believe. I don't recall anything in there that prevented the minister from taking action. The only thing may have been the precautionary principle.
We have salmon stocks declining, we have southern resident killer whales that are supposedly at risk because those salmon stocks continue to decline, yet the government has not used the precautionary principle to manage pinnipeds on the west coast or the east coast and we hear from fishermen on both coasts describing how many fish those pinnipeds are taking.
We go back to a fairly recent report that was tabled on December 13, 2023. It's called “Ecosystem Impacts and Management of Pinniped Populations”. There were a number of recommendations in that report.
I want to credit my colleagues, Mr. Perkins and Mr. Small, who are both from Atlantic Canada, and my colleague from New Brunswick. They heard from the fishermen there. They brought those harvesters in to talk about the number of fish that the pinniped populations are taking out of the biomass. The numbers are reportedly nine or 10 times or greater of what the total commercial catch is.
We heard that even the health of some of those pinniped populations is suffering because of lack of food, because they have basically out-eaten their food sources. Now they're moving on to other food sources and impacting those.
Recommendations from those reports went to the government. The reports requested a comprehensive response. The response is, again, as many have been, very lacklustre.
Liberal
Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
I have a point of order, just for a moment, MP Arnold, through you, Chair.
I'm just wondering—and then we can pick up right away. We have about a half an hour left. If it's okay with the rest of the committee, I think we should excuse the witnesses, if that's possible. Can we do that?
Liberal
Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Okay.
Please feel free to leave. I think you've done good service for tonight, but it's respectful to you and probably to anyone else watching that you go. I don't think we're going to get to you. We'll pick it up at a later time, if that's okay with the committee.
Sorry, MP Arnold, for interrupting. I just feel like, with a half an hour left, we should tell them, “Go home to your loved ones.” I appreciate it.
Director General, Fisheries Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Mr. Chair, if you're asking us to leave, we will leave, but otherwise we will stay.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
If I can, Mr. Chair, I really want to express appreciation to the witnesses, the department officials, for being here today, for listening.
I hope you will take at least some of what you've heard back to your bosses and especially your main boss, the minister.
I'm speaking from what I've heard, not just from myself, not from just members on the Conservative side, not just from members on the opposition party side but from members of all parties. The members here have been unimpressed by the responses from the department on the number of reports that we have submitted and the number of recommendations we've submitted.
Thank you for listening. We appreciate the dedication you have to the resource. Canada is better for your work. Thank you.
Director General, Fisheries Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Thank you so much. Thank you for your time.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you.
Just give it a second.
Okay, Mr. Arnold, when you're ready.
