Fisheries Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2024

[Mario Pelletier]

Yes, we're ready. The mechanisms that were put in place last year are still in place this year.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

Mr. Burns, if I understand correctly, a meeting was held recently between the government and industry representatives regarding what the minister said following what happened in my region, when they wanted to close the fisheries for two weeks during the last fishing season. A whale had moved into waters that were less than 20 fathoms deep.

Did that meeting take place a few weeks ago?

[Adam Burns]

There was a technical committee meeting. There will be an advisory committee meeting with all industry stakeholders early in November.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Burns, what happened in the last fishing season had a very damaging effect on the region, not only for the fishers, but also for the entire community.

You've seen the comments I made at that time. They were very hard on you, they were very hard on department officials, and they were very hard on the minister. These measures to protect whales have been in place for seven years, but minor changes that wouldn't harm our markets can't even be considered. These changes would prevent people from having to deal with the closure of a fishing area for two weeks.

I've been invited to attend some meetings on this. People have said that the landed value to the fishery is $3 billion, so a two-week closure and a loss of $24 million would not have a devastating impact on the region. If you or other officials have such thoughts, you won't be able to have the trust of the communities and people in the industry.

Will you introduce more flexible measures without compromising the protection of right whales?

Are you going to listen to people in the industry and take into account the data presented to you by experts? You said earlier that you weren't a scientist, but scientists came to this committee, and they said that the tools currently available could make it possible to implement relaxed measures. This would avoid stress on the industry and would no longer penalize fishers, plant workers and regions.

Will you consider relaxing measures to prevent such situations from happening again?

In addition, the Government of Canada used three different charts showing the depth of the waters to determine where the whale was. This is totally unacceptable to me, as an elected official, and to the industry community and the community. We looked like a bunch of idiots—pardon me for using that term—and I hope there will be changes.

Will there be any changes to the protection of right whales?

[Adam Burns]

The 10 to 20-fathom water protocols were put in place to reflect the industry perspective. These measures were aimed at reducing the impact on the lobster fishery.

The water depth protocols definitely need to be reviewed to make sure that our data is accurate. We'll listen to the industry's opinions, of course. We're aware of the effect that the closure of the fishery last spring had on the fishing community. The minister will take all of this into account when she makes decisions on the protection measures that will be put in place for 2025.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

That's perfect.

In March, shrimp fishers came to meet with the minister and officials to propose an assistance plan. I'm told there's been no follow-up since then.

Are you aware of these fishers' request for the assistance plan? They want to know whether or not you agree with this assistance plan.

Have you met with them about this?

[Adam Burns]

The minister is aware of the request, of course. We're working with people in that industry, and the officials responsible for the Quebec region are working closely with them.

The minister granted allocations to redfish and shrimp fishers. There have been a number of redfish landings in recent weeks.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I have very little time left, and I'd like to ask you one last question.

Announcements were recently made about the small craft harbours program.

All port associations find the process for obtaining digging, construction and environmental permits to be an administrative burden. It's the same thing when it comes to tendering.

Wouldn't there be a way, in 2024, to simplify this process in order to speed up the implementation of projects?

Some fishers die because no digging is done. Wharves are falling into ruin. Everyone says they know it's not the government that's the problem, but the public service is so cumbersome that nothing is moving forward.

Can you not do anything to move projects forward?

[Adam Burns]

The permits you're talking about aren't issued through the small craft harbours program, but they have to be received through the small craft harbours program.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Don't you talk to each other as departments?

[Adam Burns]

Of course we talk to each other as departments. However, what you're talking about doesn't come under the small craft harbours program.

We're working with port authorities and communities to get projects up and running as quickly as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens, for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I'm going to start with Mr. Pelletier.

Mr. Pelletier, have you been able to remedy the problem of unreasonable delays in processing harassment and intimidation complaints, particularly in the Quebec City area?

Have you also been able to restore the Coast Guard's ability to communicate in French?

[Mario Pelletier]

I'll start with the first question.

The backlog of grievances or complaints has been significantly reduced across the department, and even more so within the Coast Guard. Efforts have been made to solve the problem. I don't have specific numbers on that, but the data shows a marked improvement.

As for communication in French, I think all Quebec City employees have access to services in French. I haven't been made aware of any issues.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Apparently, a superintendent was hired who did not speak French, among other things.

[Mario Pelletier]

The superintendent in Sarnia is assisted by a deputy superintendent who works in Quebec City and is responsible for the deployment of measures in that city.

The directives make it possible to offer training to newly appointed individuals, and the deputy superintendent of Quebec is actively taking her training.

To address the problem, a person directly connected to the Quebec City office can perform these duties.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Okay.

We hope that the situation will continue to improve.

Last week, we heard from a witness who made some very interesting comments. He was an economist who served as a deputy minister in Newfoundland and Labrador. He told us that decisions concerning the protection of the resource, particularly those concerning fisheries management, should not be political. According to the witness, they should instead favour a co-management mechanism that would bring together people on the ground and a number of stakeholders other than political ones.

What do you think of that idea?

We've heard that the minister made decisions that were contrary to her department's directives, and we're wondering what the best way to protect the resource would be for the future.

[Niall O'Dea, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you for your question.

Decisions are always made in collaboration and consultation with stakeholders and partners, including the provinces that participate in the advisory processes.

We believe that this is how we can inform our minister of the views of all those stakeholders and partners in order to support the best possible decision, that is, a decision based on scientific data, socio-economic facts and other points of view.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

After all, the minister has the last word.

Is that correct?

[Niall O'Dea]

That's correct.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I know I'm going to ask an awkward question, but I'll try to make it as painless as possible.

Couldn't the opinion of scientists, the one resulting from your readings, opinions of people in the field, environmentalists and an environmental mediator prevail over a final, political decision that goes against scientists?

Wouldn't mediation be a better avenue to consider in certain contexts?

[Adam Burns]

That's not what the Fisheries Act says. According to the act, the minister makes the final decision.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

That's why the Fisheries Act will soon be revised.

We heard about the success of Norway and Finland. An expert, who has conducted studies on many subjects, including right whales, told us that most knowledge comes from the field. She also told us that the successes of Norway and Finland go far beyond those of Canada, because those countries aren’t subject to a federal regime.

Doesn't this kind of overlap between the federal and provincial governments create a kind of efficiency bottleneck, as Mr. Cormier was saying earlier?

Shouldn't Canada decentralize fisheries management?

[Niall O'Dea]

We have a pretty good system. Every year, dozens of fisheries-related decisions are made, and that's done on the basis of scientific data or a consultation process. We also follow up with people at other consultation tables, which helps to facilitate the decision-making process.

Obviously, the fishery is changing quite rapidly. In that context, the federal government's involvement is very important if we want to have management on a larger scale.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

In a context of a fundamental crisis where certain biomasses are collapsing, how can we explain that fishers are calling for the redfish fishery to be opened, citing the fact that it would be the loss of shrimp biomass if Canada didn't react?

I've been on this committee for a couple of years, and I've heard this for at least four years. Apparently, the problem is even older than that.

How do you explain the fact that Canada can't react more quickly to such a situation and solve the problem related to the collapse of the shrimp biomass?