Fisheries Committee on Oct. 30th, 2024

[Chief Lenora Joe]

Unfortunately, no, I don't, because it was cancelled in the late nineties.

[Chief Lenora Joe]

If you have records on that, could—

[Chief Lenora Joe]

I could definitely find out and share that information with you.

[Chief Lenora Joe]

Through some of the earlier testimony, we found that one of the problems with people abandoning boats is that there are no harbourmasters present. It's kind of a free-for-all. If your guardian program was re-established, it could help pay for a harbourmaster who could keep tabs on things.

Mr. Macedo, I noticed that economic development is in your field of interest.

Are there economic development opportunities available that would allow some kind of industry to crop up around dealing with derelict boats?

[Paul Macedo]

Absolutely, Mr. Chair. There's tremendous opportunity in removal, recovery and so on. CANDO was approached to develop indigenous participation plans and help formulate the wording and design of request for proposals that would encourage participation in the removal and recovery of vessels by indigenous businesses, whether privately held or owned by a community. However, what we found was that we were too far along in the process for communities to be actively engaged. Their priorities, as stated by other witnesses, including Chief Joe, lie earlier in that process: food security, cultural preservation and environmental stewardship.

If we can gain trust and build capacity among first nations through their marine teams at that early stage, we can then also show them.... As they're developing data on vessels of concern in their territorial waters, they can start looking at that. “Well, if we're protecting our environment and food security, we can also participate in the economic opportunities involved in the removal of these vessels.” It's showcasing to them what the full opportunity really is. Then they can take steps to develop skills, purchase equipment, develop training and work with ISET holders to organize the training of their youth, so they can more fully participate in the spectrum of opportunity—monitoring, assessment, removal and recovery.

Thank you.

[Chief Lenora Joe]

Thank you, Mr. Macedo.

I want to sneak one quick question to Chief Joe in here.

I actually wanted to ask this of Councillor Edwards. He mentioned the Nathan E. Stewart. I remember how, at the time, one of the big tipping points was the fact that indigenous knowledge wasn't considered at all when they were trying to recover the oil and deal with the Nathan E. Stewart.

Has that situation improved in the relationship with DFO and the Coast Guard?

[Chief Lenora Joe]

I am not sure.

[Chief Lenora Joe]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

We will now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes or less.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'm going to hand over my time to my colleague Ms. Barron, since the witnesses are from her riding.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay, that's very nice of you to do that.

Ms. Barron, you have five minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mrs. Desbiens. That's very kind of you.

I'll continue with some questions. I think my next question will be for Chief Joe.

Chief Joe, thank you for all of the thoughtful information that you've brought forward today. It's very good information for us to bring with us as we form recommendations for the government on how to best move forward.

You had spoken, Chief Joe, about your people being salmon people; that is what you were talking about. I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit more about the impacts on people in the nation of human-caused pollutants like derelict and abandoned vessels. Could you expand a little bit more on the cultural impacts?

Anything further that you could add to that would be really helpful.

[Chief Lenora Joe]

Again, echoing Mr. Edwards' comments about the cultural impacts, our food is part of our culture. The way we collect food, the way we gather it, the way we celebrate—everything that we do depends on the food that we can gather. If we think about, as indigenous people, everything that we've lost in the last 150 years, there's very little that we have left to hold onto to secure and know what our identity is.

As indigenous people, our language, our land and our culture and traditions are all that we have, and a big part of that is food gathering and food security, and the main source of that food gathering comes from the ocean.

There are so many different kinds of food that we normally would gather on a regular basis for all of our different kinds of events that we've done, and for our daily lives. As a child, I did that with my grandparents. I went out and did food gathering with them throughout our swiya—all kinds of food gathering. That was part of who we were in trying to ensure that we had enough food to take us through the winter.

As a young mother, I did the same thing. We live right in the inlet, and, unfortunately, I can look out my window and see all the derelict boats. I can no longer swim in front of my house; there's a beautiful ocean there, but I can't swim there. It's contaminated by all of the boats that are there. I can't gather any food there any longer.

My son knows that I love cockles; we go digging cockles throughout the swiya. He decided one day he was going to go in front of our house and do that, and he brought me a big bucket of cockles. He brought it into the house, and he wanted to cook it. “Let's clean it, Mom; let's cook it and let's eat it together.” I said, “We can't; it's contaminated.” We had to go walk it back out to the ocean and throw it back in the ocean.

How do I explain to my 10-year-old son that we can't gather food? We have to go to other places. We have to go far up the inlet to try to gather some of our food to bring it down. It's very difficult, and not just for our elders who don't have access to the food that they ate on a daily basis. We don't have access to that any further. The risk is huge for us that our children and grandchildren and my great-grandchildren are not going to have that opportunity or know what that is.

We're very concerned and we're very upset. We want to work on it, and we have been doing what we can. We've taken some of the boats out at our own cost because we were concerned about them. The impact is huge; we don't have the time, we don't have the staff and we don't have the funding to be able to address that to begin to restore all of those areas, so it is very difficult.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you so much. That's very powerful information.

I only have a little bit of time left, but I want to ask a question of Mr. Macedo.

Could you speak a little bit about your thoughts on how important it is that the vessels are cleaned up prior to their sinking, and why that might be?

[Paul Macedo]

Absolutely. What we've identified through the first nations we've worked with is a growing frustration that they recognize vessels that are in danger of sinking, but no action can be taken until they've sunk. The frustration is that not only the cost but also the effort and the potential damage to ecosystems are much greater on the two sides of that scale.

What we're trying to do is to work so that first nations know that when they assess or monitor and feed that data back to the Coast Guard, the data is valued and is going to create a priority for the Coast Guard to consider. There's a big difference between the number of vessels on the vessels of concern list and the number of vessels on the vessels of concern list for each first nation; those two are not the same.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Macedo.

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

I want to say a huge thank you to our witnesses from our first panel, Chief Joe, Paul Macedo and Mr. Edwards, though I know he's left the Zoom call. Again, thank you for sharing your knowledge with the committee as we do this particular study we're doing right now

We'll suspend for a few moments to switch out for the next panel.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call the meeting back to order.

Welcome to our witnesses on the second panel.

We have in the room, from the Snuneymuxw First Nation, Mr. John White, director of the marine division. On Zoom, we have elected Chief Councillor Ken Watts of the Tseshaht First Nation.

Thank you for taking the time to appear today. You will each have up to five minutes or less for your opening statement.

Mr. White, you're up first for five minutes or less, please.

[John White, Director, Marine Division, Snuneymuxw First Nation]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

'Uy' skweyul, everyone.

[Witness spoke in Hul'q'imi'num']

[English]

My name is John White, and I'm, like you said, the marine director for Snuneymuxw First Nation.

Snuneymuxw First Nation is located in the heart of the Salish Sea on the eastern side of Vancouver Island. Since time immemorial, the Snuneymuxw mustimuxw have resided in the Snuneymuxw traditional territory as first peoples, sustaining our lands, resources, culture and spiritual way. Our territory encompasses one of the most resource-rich areas in the heart of the Salish Sea. I understand that I'm called as a witness. However, first nations in Canada need to be a part of the complete law-making process. I think that's important for me to bring up here today.

The Snuneymuxw marine division, the Snuneymuxw nation and Canadians are facing significant challenges in dealing with derelict vessels within our traditional territory. Derelict vessels compromise Snuneymuxw peoples' food sovereignty and traditional way of life. Snuneymuxw holds stewardship of our waters and lands as our highest priority to ensure that our people and generations to follow can continue to live as our ancestors and elders have lived for thousands of generations before contact. The Snuneymuxw marine division intervention becomes crucial in safeguarding the environment and in mitigating the impacts of these hazards.

There is the environmental and ecological damage that they pose, damaging Pacific salmon stocks and damaging rearing habitat in one of British Columbia's largest estuaries, the Nanaimo River estuary. Snuneymuxw is seeing the largest decline in Pacific salmon stocks in history, specifically the Fraser River sockeye salmon run. It's a historical run of over 100 million fish, and it has declined to 500,000 as of this year. So, there's a major decline in the sockeye salmon, every other species of salmon in our area, and the listed DU 21 chinook stocks on the Nanaimo River. The Nanaimo River system has seen a decline, as I mentioned, in all Pacific salmon that call this system home. The man-made cumulative impacts have been detrimental to the survival of these Pacific salmon.

Reports from October 2021 have indicated that nearly 1,600 derelict vessels have been found on the coast of British Columbia. The Canadian government enacted the Wrecked, Abandoned or Hazardous Vessels Act in July 2019. Before this act, it was legal and common for boat owners to abandon derelict vessels on the B.C. coast, causing derelict vessels to be a historic problem.

Since being legislated, the Wrecked, Abandoned or Hazardous Vessels Act has given the Canadian Coast Guard and Transport Canada some tools to deal with the future of abandoned vessels. It has shifted the responsibility of wrecked, abandoned and hazardous vessels back to owners, which is a high priority for us as first nations.

That being said, the lack of capacity and timely response is becoming more evident with the Canadian Coast Guard and Transport Canada, and the first nations' response has become ever more relevant.

Although there are some tools being created to stop future derelict vessels from posing environmental risk to our coastlines—for example, the Canadian Coast Guard's co-developing community response program, CDCR,—but more needs to be done both federally and provincially, including long-term sustainable funding to support identification and prevention.

Derelict vessels have been anchored and subsequently abandoned in the Snuneymuxw First Nation territory, presenting a multi-faceted problem for the Snuneymuxw marine division emergency response team. When an owner leaves a vessel unattended, it often falls into despair, jeopardizing the integrity of the marine environment around it. In response to such situations, the marine division takes on the responsibility of assessing and addressing the impacts of these abandoned vessels.

The nation works diligently with BC Parks, local ports, the Canadian Coast Guard, local residents and our Snuneymuxw community to observe and respond to the derelict vessel program. Upon identifying a derelict vessel, the Snuneymuxw marine division employs specialized equipment to monitor its condition and degradation over time. Notices are affixed to the vessel, serving as a communication tool to alert the owner of the vessel about its status. However, the reality is that in many cases the vessel is left abandoned, leading to potential environmental hazards.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Mr. White, I have to cut you off there. You've gone over the five-minute mark for your opening remarks. Hopefully, during the rounds of questioning you can get out anything that you didn't get to here.

We'll now go to Mr. Ken Watts for five minutes or less, please.

[Ken Watts, Elected Chief Councillor, Tseshaht First Nation]

Thank you.

[Witness spoke in Nuuh-chah-nulth]

[English]

My name is Ken Watts, waamiiš, and I'm elected chief councillor of Tseshaht First Nation. We're on the west coast of Vancouver Island. Our community here is in Port Alberni, and our territory runs in the Alberni Inlet, much of Barkley Sound and offshore as well.

We have roughly 1,300 members. We have never ceded or surrendered our territory; however, we have a sacred responsibility to look after that territory we call our ha’houlthee. It is a gift from the creator to our hereditary chiefs. It is our responsibility as a council and a community to support them in this work in looking after Uu-a-thluke, as we call it, taking care and doing so with iisaak, respect, and recognizing that everything is one and interconnected, hish-uk ts’a-walk.

Thank you.

I don't have a lot of time, so I'll try to jump right to the point here.

I wish I could show you photos. I know it's not part of this, but I'd love to be able to show you some of the derelict and abandoned vessels in our territory, specifically within the Alberni Inlet and parts of Barkley Sound, but also to bring to your attention the issues of float homes and houseboats and this weird jurisdictional piece between the province and the federal government on this particular type of facility that's on the water that often becomes derelict and abandoned as well.

Again, the issue here for Tseshaht is really that these abandoned vessels that are left often become environmentally harmful to our territory and, obviously, many times end up sinking, producing oil spills within our territory.

This is why I think attention needs to be focused on prevention before things become abandoned, before they become derelict, and addressing them, because what we see right now here in Port Alberni and in our territory is that an issue comes up with a boat, it's left there, they wait for the boat owner to deal with it and then the boat sinks. Meanwhile, there are other people who are standing on standby who could help clean up those boats before they become an issue, so I'm really encouraging the federal government to focus on prevention here.

It's just like a car accident. When a car accident happens, we don't wait for the car owner to deal with the accident or wait for their insurance provider. It's dealt with. Send them the bill later. Boats should be treated the same way, and the government should step in, help clean them up right away and send the bill to the boat owner, not wait for them and their insurance provider to step in and fix it.

Again, I encourage you to look at laws to address issues before they become significant, as has happened here in our territory.

Also, Tseshaht First Nation has seen the support from the WCMRC, the work that they have done and the west coast marine spill response team here on the west coast. They have stepped in and been on standby waiting to deal with these derelict and abandoned boats before they become an issue.

Also, groups like Coastal Restoration Society here on the west coast have done a ton of work cleaning up here within our territories, and have done it in collaboration and in partnership with first nations such as Tseshaht.

There are also federal and provincial jurisdictional issues in terms of the locations of the jurisdictions that happen here. For Tseshaht, we have the Port Alberni Port Authority, the provincial jurisdiction and foreshore responsibility in our territory. I think it often becomes muddied waters about responsibility.

Another recommendation you'll hear from me later is about really ensuring that the responsibility to consult and work with first nations isn't just passed on to the port authority, who may, sometimes, never consult with the nations about what's happening in their own backyard. At the end of the day, the Crown still has a duty to consult, accommodate and seek the consent of the first nation and, right now, that is not happening in our territory.

There's also a head lease here in Tseshaht territory that the Port Alberni Port Authority used to have from the province of B.C., but right now, that's expired.

To date, we've had little consultation and engagement about any of our waterways within our territory, from the lakes, down the rivers, down the inlet, into our harbour; however, we are working collaboratively with some of your counterparts in Parks Canada, as the Pacific Rim National Park Reserve does operate within Tseshaht unceded territory.

Again, I think some of the actions should be around improving federal responsibilities and accountability and ensuring that there's not just an off-loading of responsibility to port authorities to work with first nations. The federal government still has the underlying responsibility.

I'll jump right to my recommendations and suggestions for the path forward.

One is investing in prevention of derelict and abandoned boats and vessels in the first place. Let's not wait until things become really bad and these boats sink and become environmental disasters in our backyard, but rather let's partner, as mentioned earlier by some other presenters, with the first nations guardian program. We have a beach keeper program here that has operated for a number of years in collaboration with Parks Canada. We have staff who are the first ones out there when something goes wrong. They're the first people who see when guests arrive at our shores and they are obviously able to provide some much-needed support in communications and training.

The second piece of that is providing training for those guardian programs to be able to deal with some of these abandoned and derelict boats.

More funds also—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I have to cut you off there, Mr. Watts. We've gone a little bit over time. Hopefully anything you didn't get to say will come out in the rounds of questioning.

I'll go to Mr. Small for six minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question will be for Mr. Watts. I see here that you have a marine division and an environmental division.

How could the government's abandoned vessel removal program work better, while utilizing the knowledge that your nation has gained by being a part of abandoned and derelict vessel removals?

How can you make the program better?

[Ken Watts]

I think you've heard before of the traditional knowledge and understanding of the waterways. We're out there more than anybody else. Our fishers are out there. Our beach keepers are out there. I think that utilizing traditional knowledge is key.

Also, I think that collaboration.... First nations are already working with organizations that are helping to clean up those shores and the federal government needs to support those organizations. I think that should actually be a requirement. I think you've done that already as a federal government in terms of beach clean-up and other portions. You've made it a standard that those companies need to work with nations.

I think that continued investment into those organizations that work collaboratively with us is one of the key pieces. You have that within your authority to create those types of conditions under funding programs.

Again, I could sit here and keep saying “more money, more money”, but I think it's about also supporting those groups that are supporting us and working with us. This is our territory and we want to work with everybody to make sure we prevent these disasters.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

I'd like to ask Mr. White the same question.

[John White]

Thank you.

Currently, we have an emergency response division within our marine division. We have programs with the Coast Guard and Transport Canada. Long-term, sustainable funding has to be.... I know the funding with the CDCR program is running out and we don't know the longevity of where that program is going to be. That's important work we have been undertaking with the Canadian Coast Guard, to develop capacity for the Snuneymuxw marine division to get on the water and start taking action against derelict vessels.

That being said, long-term, sustainable funding to continue our programs is a main priority.

Regarding our continued partnership with the Canadian Coast Guard in the CDCR and the CPIIR, we're developing a communications portal with the Canadian Coast Guard to develop a response regime where first nations, DFO and the Canadian Coast Guard can respond in a timely way to incidents along the coast and along the east coast of Vancouver Island. To continue those partnerships as well as developing capacity within for us....

We have boats, gear, ROVs, drones and equipment. We have a whole list of equipment. We have CTD water quality management, so we can look at microparticles that entering the system. It's just having that longevity to develop those programs and that capacity.

We've been ongoing for two years with the Canadian Coast Guard with these programs, but they're two-year and one-year programs. We don't know if we can continue to support our community to advance within these and an important part of the process is that development.