Evidence of meeting #128 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vessels.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Roberta Bowman  Executive Director, Ladysmith Chamber of Commerce
Chloe Dubois  Executive Director, Ocean Legacy Foundation

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 128 of the House Common Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the Standing Orders.

Before we proceed, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. Please address all comments through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on February 28, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of derelict and abandoned vessels.

We welcome our witnesses. We have on Zoom Roberta Bowman, executive director of the Ladysmith Chamber of Commerce. We also have with us Chloe Dubois, executive director of Ocean Legacy Foundation.

Thank you for taking the time to appear today. You will each have five minutes or less for your opening statement.

Ms. Bowman, you have the floor.

Roberta Bowman Executive Director, Ladysmith Chamber of Commerce

Thank you, Chair.

Good morning, Chair and committee members. Thank you for allowing me to speak on the pressing issue of derelict and abandoned vessels.

I come to you today from Ladysmith, Vancouver Island, on the traditional territory of the Stz'uminus First Nation.

Derelict and abandoned vessels directly impact our community, economy and environment. Over the past several years, I've seen first-hand the impact of abandoned vessels in Ladysmith waters. As a coastal community, we depend on healthy waterways for local fisheries and tourism. As a boater, I've sailed from Croatia to Vancouver, visiting 150 ports worldwide, and nowhere have I encountered the level of derelict boats we see here in British Columbia. Our waters are littered, and it's a growing concern.

Abandoned vessels leak oil, fuel and chemicals, harming marine ecosystems and endangering fish, marine mammals and coastal wildlife. These pollutants threaten our environment and compromise the health of waters essential for fishing and tourism. Our waterfront is a vital community asset, essential for residents and to attracting visitors; however, abandoned vessels create ongoing challenges, deterring tourists, boaters and recreational users and projecting an image of neglect that harms our local tourism industry.

Abandoned vessels pose serious safety risks, blocking channels and creating hazards for boaters. Sunken boats also make anchoring and navigation difficult. In Ladysmith, an area known as Dogpatch is especially impacted, with many boats abandoned or occupied by individuals facing housing, addiction and mental health challenges. This safety concern is troubling, especially given its proximity to Transfer Beach, a cherished community waterfront.

As a community, we cannot solve this problem alone. Stronger collaboration between local governments, provincial authorities and federal agencies is essential. However, I believe a comprehensive, multipronged approach is necessary to address the root causes of derelict vessels in British Columbia's waters.

While the initial steps are appreciated, they are not enough. Canada needs a proactive, sustainable and comprehensive strategy that goes beyond addressing existing abandoned vessels and focuses on prevention and accountability. A national strategy would ensure that all regions, communities and stakeholders are united in addressing, removing and preventing abandoned vessels in Canadian waters. This approach is crucial for preserving our environment, supporting our local economies and respecting indigenous rights to hunting, fishing and food security.

We have some recommendations from the Ladysmith Chamber of Commerce. We believe that the Government of Canada should adopt a national strategy based on three principles: identification, removal and prevention.

Our key recommendations are collaboration and stakeholder engagement, improved systems for vessel owner identification, adjustment of fees to cover vessel disposal costs, establishing a vessel turn-in program, promoting recycling standards and innovation, sending support for salvage services in local and indigenous communities and streamlining the disposal process.

The expected benefits of a national strategy would be environmental protection, community safety, economic support and indigenous rights and food security.

At the end of the day, derelict vessels are not just an eyesore. They represent a serious risk to our environment, our economy and the safety of our residents. I urge the government to take action by creating more robust programs for vessel disposal, increasing funding for their removal and fostering co-operation between all levels of government and local stakeholders.

With a national strategy, I believe we can protect our precious coastal resources and ensure that future generations can enjoy the beauty and bounty of our waters.

Thank you for your time and consideration. I'm happy to answer any questions or provide further insights on this issue.

Thank you, Chair.

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you for that.

We'll now go to Madam Dubois for her opening statement of five minutes or less.

Chloe Dubois Executive Director, Ocean Legacy Foundation

Thank you, Chair.

Good day, everyone. Thank you for this opportunity to speak with you all. I'm calling in today from the unceded territory of the Musqueam First Nation in Richmond, British Columbia.

Ocean Legacy has been cleaning shoreline and ocean environments for the last 10 years and has been working incredibly hard to develop industrial-scale best practices that work to restore ecologically and culturally sensitive coastal environments by removing shoreline marine debris, subsurface ghost gear and derelict vessels, and through derelict aquaculture gear removal.

Our team works incredibly closely with indigenous and coastal communities to develop project plans together that remove large amounts of solid waste pollution and then work to recycle and reuse as much of the recovered material as possible. We work alongside first nation communities to help restore critical traditional food-harvesting and culturally significant areas, and to help collect, collate and share important data resulting from the survey and removal work.

To date, we have removed over 30 vessels along the coast of British Columbia, and we know there is a lot more work to do to remove the countless vessels remaining. According to estimates from a 2015 study, over 1,500 derelict vessels are listed to be on the Canadian Pacific coast alone, with over 4,500 across the country. However, these are just the vessels we can see on the surface. As underwater surveys and restoration efforts continue to grow, we expect these numbers to increase exponentially.

We have seen first-hand how destructive these vessels can be, leaking oils and fuel, resins, plastics, black waters, heavy metals from bottom paint and vessel construction, polystyrenes, asbestos insulation, chemicals and other anthropogenic debris into the water. If it doesn't sink or leach into the water, it will then concentrate and wash ashore. When these materials concentrate along shorelines, they then break up into millions of tiny fragments, entering the food chain and impacting the habitat, health and safety of all species.

We have found that cleaning up these vessels can be very time-consuming and financially demanding due to the required permitting processes that are mandatory for removal, alongside the complex aquatic environments that we must then navigate once these vessels have sunk. It becomes further challenging as databases are often not up to date. Vessels are easily traded or sold, and as owners retire or pass away, often leaving vessels to become derelict, the registry is not up to date.

We need to be able to address, remove and prevent these vessels from sinking, and we must not allow them to become subsurface hazards. We have found that once vessels have sunk, ropes, nets and other debris become entangled with these structures, creating very dangerous environments for wildlife, which then becomes entangled. They often become hot spots for ghost gear, resulting in wildlife emaciation, drownings and vessel strikes.

These submerged vessels often create a high risk for subsurface vessel strikes, creating dangerous navigable waters for vessels across the coast, which are then uncharted. Hitting a submerged vessel with a vessel not only risks injury to the persons on board but also poses the risk of adding another vessel to the list of derelicts. We have personally received countless reports from commercial divers that in areas where derelict vessels lie, there are often three or more other vessels stacked in the same place, one on top of the other.

The introduction of the Wrecked, Abandoned or Hazardous Vessels Act, created in 2019, was a great start in addressing the derelict vessel program on this coast, but it is not enough, and the funds available compared to the immediate need of removal costs fall short. The funds that have been provided by the Province of British Columbia through the clean coast, clean waters initiative fund have also been an incredible resource; however, continuation of these funds has not been announced. We urgently need more physical resources allocated to this problem to continue to survey areas and to perform removal.

The government should also consider creating some concessions in terms of modifying the removal permit process when vessels are destroyed on shorelines and are actively polluting the environment. We have found dozens of vessels that are beached and ripped apart and that are actively contributing toxic pollution to environments, but then, we are not legally allowed to do anything about them without undergoing an incredibly extensive review and consultation process. This often results in the vessels having to remain in place because of constricted funding timelines for grants, which restricts the ability to undergo such administrative processes. Addressing this issue to enable cleanup crews to remove these acute sources of pollution when they are discovered during cleanup operations would be extremely beneficial.

Thank you for the consideration today and for the opportunity to speak with you all about these important matters. We look forward to continuing to work on these pressing matters together.

Thank you for your time.

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you for that.

Before I go to Mr. Small, I neglected to recognize Mr. Kelloway before I started opening statements. He had his hand up.

Mr. Kelloway, when you're ready, please go ahead.

Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to put forward a motion.

I move,

That, upon tabling of the supplementary estimates (B) for the fiscal year 2024-25, the committee invite Minister Lebouthillier to testify on the supplementary estimates (B) by no later than the end of the current supply period.

The rationale for it is that the Conservatives are actively stalling the supplementary estimates from being adopted in the House of Commons. We believe that's going to have an impact on the ability of real, key essential services like the Coast Guard and CMP to operate effectively. These services are absolutely important. We think it could play a role, not just in safety but in ceasing a lot of operations with respect to harvesters. We'd like to have the minister come in and speak to that and the impact of the stalling with respect to Canadian fisheries, writ large, and harvesters.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you.

Mr. Arnold.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I somewhat agree with Mr. Kelloway. It would be good to have the minister appear on the estimates and to hear what is being done. To counter the idea that it's the Conservatives who are stalling, it's the Liberals who have been ordered by the majority of members of Parliament to produce documents. They have not done so. Thus, it is the Liberals who are actually stalling the government process.

I would like to make an amendment to the motion at the end so that it reads, “the committee invite Minister Lebouthillier to testify on the supplementary estimates (B) for a minimum of one hour by no later than December 4”.

I say that because of the uncertain calendar that we're always faced with as we move into December. The current supply period could be deemed as December 17. That would be the final sitting day for this committee. I'm unsure whether we would actually be coming back for it simply on Monday and Tuesday in mid-December, and also with the week prior to that being questionable. That's why I proposed December 4.

The motion would read, “That the committee invite Minister Lebouthillier to testify on the supplementary estimates (B) for a minimum of one hour....” Actually, I'll make it that the minister appear “for two hours by no later than December 4, 2024”.

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Okay.

Mr. Small.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I echo what my colleague, Mr. Arnold, just said. These documents, which the majority of members of Parliament have asked for, need to be produced in Parliament. Then things can get back to normal and we can proceed. It's Mr. Kelloway's party, unfortunately, that's causing this backlog in Parliament. It's a very simple thing to produce these unredacted documents on the green slush fund, which I'm sure you, Mr. Chair, would love to see as well, given your support for this side of the table here.

Two hours would be an appropriate amount of time for the minister to appear, since Mr. Kelloway highlighted the importance of her appearance here. The fishing industry, I'm sure, would love to hear from her again.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Mr. Bragdon.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

I would just like to further comment on the original motion plus the supplement to it. I think it's been very clearly established over, I would say, the beginning stages of the debate within the House of Commons as it relates to the statement that was made by Mr. Kelloway. It's abundantly clear: The Speaker has ruled that the documents should be released and that, right now, the government is standing in violation of the Speaker's decree as it relates to a majority vote that was held and passed by all parties in the House except for one. I think it would behoove our friends on the other side to take that into consideration before casting aspersions upon members of the opposition for doing our job of holding the government to account on this matter.

Just to reiterate, Mr. Chair, I think it's very important that it be clearly understood that the reason certain things are held up in the House is that those on the governing side of the House have not released the documents at this point. Release the documents, and I think everything will speed up quite quickly. I wanted to just add my voice to that.

Further, I support the call for the minister to come by December 4, because who knows, with the activities of the House, when we will actually adjourn for Christmas? Let's make sure she has an opportunity to come and address the committee and do it in detail. Two hours is a good time, and it would be great to have her come and share. I'm sure the harvesters across the country would appreciate that, and those in the fishing industry and coastal communities would as well.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you for that.

Go ahead, Ms. Barron.

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you.

I was going to call a point of order, but that works out well. It's my turn anyway.

I want to ask for unanimous consent from the committee.

I know we're in a motion, so it's more of a point of order around whether we can extend the meeting to make sure we get all of our questions in. We go into a closed business committee after this meeting, and I want to make sure that we get fulsome questions to our witnesses who are here, so I want to ask for unanimous consent that we continue on until all of our preplanned questions have moved forward, due to the fact we've had some delays in getting started here.

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

We agree on this one.

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Okay.

Is it agreed?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

There's no problem.

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Okay, so that's fine.

Now we go to Mr. Morrissey.

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Thank you, Chair.

First, I don't have a problem with the amendment proposed by Mr. Arnold. What I do have a problem with is the continued hypocrisy coming from the Conservative official opposition, who choose to editorialize the Speaker's ruling selectively to suit their particular agenda, which is to delay the House at a time when we hear consistently from them, on this particular ministry, the urgency and the importance of funding for enhanced protection as well as for the Canadian Coast Guard. They hide behind the selective editing of a Speaker's ruling that does not really say what the official opposition likes to interpret it as saying, but that has not been lost on the Canadian public.

I must say, if you look at the record, ministers of fisheries in this government have appeared before this committee in greater frequency than they did in the nine years of the previous Conservative government. That's for the record, if you want to choose that.

Mr. Chair, I'm okay with the amendment of Mr. Arnold.

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Go ahead, Mr. Arnold.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Just for the record, as Mr. Morrissey stated, I did previously state that it was an order of the majority of the members of Parliament that the government produce the documents. The government has failed to produce those documents. That's why the Speaker made the ruling he did.

If we have no other amendments or discussion, I think we can go to the question on the amendment.

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Go ahead, Madam Clerk.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1)

(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The motion as amended has passed.

Now we'll go back to our round of questioning.

Mr. Small, you're up for six minutes or less, please.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for coming here today for this very valuable study.

I'll go to Ms. Bowman first of all.

These waters are littered by members of the public. When the mining industry or some other type of industry leaves its junk behind, it's forced by the government to clean it up.

How much onus should be on the government to clean up garbage that's left behind by the general public?

11:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Ladysmith Chamber of Commerce

Roberta Bowman

Thank you, Mr. Small, for your question.

I totally agree. The public should be cleaning up after themselves. Here on the west coast, we do cleanup days multiple times a year. There are shore volunteers who go out, multitudes all over B.C., and clean up the shores. It's all volunteer. They go out and they clean up the shores of all of the remnants you were discussing.

More does need to be done, definitely. I know that there are a lot of impacts and changes, like people going from plastic straws to paper straws and things like that, to help mitigate that as well. I think it's an ongoing issue that people are really focusing on.

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you very much.

We've heard testimony, Ms. Bowman, that it seems like the derelict vessel problem is increasing as time goes on and as more people realize they can leave their derelict vessels behind, abandoned, and the ownership is not traced. Even people who are paying attention to this study are going to realize that it's easier to do this than what they might have thought before.

What do you think can be done to slow down the increase of this, basically, dumping in the ocean?