Fisheries Committee on Dec. 4th, 2024

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Climate change is indeed an important issue. We know that every wild species on the planet is at risk. Establishing marine refuges and protected marine areas allows species to reproduce, and that's how we can ensure the future of our fisheries.

In the case of the Great Bear Sea, for example, that work is being carried out in collaboration with indigenous communities as part of the reconciliation process. We have other projects throughout our oceans to promote wildlife reproduction and protect the fisheries sector for the future.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Is DFO subject to staff reductions as the federal government looks to trim the public service? Are you in a position of needing to oversee staff reductions at the DFO? If so, in which areas?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I'll ask the deputy minister to respond to that question.

[Annette Gibbons, Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

We are looking at staff reductions as a result of the budget 2023 reductions exercise. There are a lot of different buckets of money that we'll be making reductions to.

Travel is a big one, not staff reductions. Also, in procurement, we'll be reducing some of our professional services budgets. There are other things we'll be doing across the department in different areas. We're trying to be more efficient in our use of different types of workers and categories, for example; more efficient in the way we do communications; and more efficient in administrative services and financial management activities.

It really is broadly distributed across the department. We expect that we will be able to do this in a way that does not affect services to Canadians. That's a summary.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you for that.

I'm wondering if there's any consideration about rebalancing DFO's resources. We quite often hear suggestions that DFO is quite top-heavy at the headquarters in Ottawa, which is a long way from our oceans. Is there any thought about getting more resources closer to sea level where they can do things like enforcement and a lot of the other things that DFO is being challenged to do?

[Annette Gibbons]

As it is, 80% of DFO's employees are distributed across the country outside of the national capital region, and we're very careful in the reductions exercises not to have a disproportionate impact on the regions. As to the 20% of employees who are in the national capital region, there's a higher percentage of reductions to personnel in the national capital region. I believe it's 35% or 40%.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

One of the other areas of concern, which has come up with the elver fishery and a number of other areas, has to do with enforcement. I'm wondering if DFO is considering making better use or a more expanded use of indigenous guardians to help fill in the gaps, because there are only so many peace officers or other officers available to enforce fishing regulations. Again, I'm thinking specifically of the elver fishery, which has been in a pretty difficult situation for the last couple of seasons.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

We're working with indigenous communities. You're right to mention the river guardians. Indeed, indigenous communities are ready and eager to work with Fisheries and Oceans Canada, particularly to ensure the protection and future of the fisheries. In this respect, we are gathering knowledge not only from people in indigenous communities, but also from non-indigenous fishermen and the department's own scientists. It's really by combining these three aspects and taking everyone's experiences into account that we'll succeed in protecting the fisheries, not just for today, but for tomorrow too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I thank the witnesses for coming.

Good afternoon, Minister.

I've obviously seen a lot of numbers, and I'm just wondering one thing about the Great Bear Sea project. It's a lot of money. In the pile of figures before us, how much is going to Quebec fishermen, inshore fishermen, indigenous and non-indigenous fishermen?

You showed awareness earlier when you said you wanted to ensure there would still be fish for our children. The next generation is also concerned about inshore fisheries. Some fishermen's sons had planned to be fishermen but that's no longer the case.

In this heap of millions of dollars, is there anything for Quebec, be it for non-indigenous fishermen, indigenous fishermen or newcomers?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I can tell you that the figures announced forecast significant investment in small craft harbours in Quebec this year. Moreover, exploratory licences have become commercial licences for sea urchin and sea cucumber fishing. In addition, licences have been issued on the north shore for exploratory lobster fishing. I think that the people of Quebec are doing well right now.

The marine protected areas include the Banc‑des‑Américains. We also have a project under way with the Magdalen Islands and another project with the Quebec government around Anticosti Island.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

What proportion of the money is allocated to Quebec as opposed to the rest of Canada?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I can tell you that Quebec has never seen as much investment as this year. I hope that this reassures you. I'm also working hard with harbour associations and fishers' associations.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Good.

I'll draw your attention to the Verchères and Saint‑Laurent‑de‑l'Île‑d'Orléans wharves. People are impatiently waiting for their wharves to undergo repairs so that they can use the wharves again. This applies in particular to the municipality of Saint‑Laurent‑de‑l'Île‑d'Orléans.

Indigenous people recently told us that they don't have any resources for recovering ghost ships, for example. They told us that their voices aren't being heard. Do any of the 40,000 or so people who work for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans reach out to indigenous people?

We've heard here that they lack the resources, for example, to recover ghost gear and ghost ships from the ocean floor. They have the desire, the skill and the knowledge, but they come to us begging to be heard.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Let me reassure you. We work closely with indigenous communities.

I'm quite proud of the collaborative work between Fisheries and Oceans Canada and Transport Canada when it comes to abandoned vessels. Since 2017, 791 vessels have been removed. The work is ongoing.

I can tell you that I work closely with indigenous communities.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

So much the better. That's good news.

We're experiencing a fisheries crisis. As recently as Monday, we heard that, given the mental state of the fishers affected by Fisheries and Oceans Canada's various decisions and the ensuing consequences, the Quebec fisheries crisis has resulted in a psychological shock almost as severe as the shock caused by the Lac‑Mégantic accident. A study on this topic was carried out in Trois‑Rivières by a leading scientist. It's quite a significant impact.

I was wondering whether the budget appropriations included more investments to recruit scientists—such as sociologists, psychologists and analysts—to assess the psychosocial impact of any decisions in advance. This could then have a greater impact on the direction taken by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

First, we happily agree that the fisheries are facing major issues and that global warming is having an impact on the gulf. I still wouldn't go so far as to compare this situation to Lac‑Mégantic, where fatalities occurred.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

It's a scientific study.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

The situation was catastrophic in Lac‑Mégantic. This isn't the case for the fisheries right now.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

There have been suicides, Minister.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Are the fisheries facing challenging situations? Yes, indeed. The fisheries will continue to face them in the gulf over the next 10 to 15 years as a result of global warming.

The work currently being done with the associations, both in the Atlantic region and in Quebec, plays an important role. It's a collaborative effort. I was told at meetings that, in the past year, the associations had become much more keen to work with Fisheries and Oceans Canada at round tables.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

We recently held a wonderful and very constructive forum. This isn't quite the message that we received. I should point out that all the organizations were represented.

That said, I just want to say that a great deal of money is floating around, but we aren't seeing that many results on the ground. The department is asking for even more money. I hope that it will be put to good use.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome, Minister.

Minister, recently, constituents in my riding from the Canadian Federation of University Women, the Nanaimo branch specifically, brought to me a series of petitions from constituents who are concerned about deep seabed mining.

We know that in the deep sea ecosystem, there are species of which we have yet to even have a glimmer of understanding. We also know the deep seabed regulates climate by sequestering carbon and that mining in our deep seabed would destroy sponges, corals and other important marine life and habitat. We heard in our most recent meeting from Susanna Fuller of Oceans North, who also talked about this issue.

Minister, I'm wondering if you could provide some clarity both to constituents in my riding of Nanaimo—Ladysmith and to Canadians across the country who are concerned about deep seabed mining. We know that you made an announcement last summer that supported a moratorium on deep seabed mining, but a Canadian-registered company called The Metals Company recently announced that it plans to submit an application to mine the international seabed on June 27, 2025, which is rapidly approaching, even though there are no regulations in place to manage deep seabed mining.

I'm wondering if you and the Liberal government will commit to putting words into action to prevent this application from being approved.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Before turning the floor over to the deputy minister, I want to reassure you about the government's work. We can work on economic development while protecting the environment and waterways. This includes freshwater rivers, which flow into the oceans. Major work is being done in this area.