Fisheries Committee on May 12th, 2022

[Dr. Michael Dadswell]

Before I say anything concerning that question, I just want to apologize to everybody. It turns out that Jay Parsons was my master's and Ph.D. student when he was in university, so I'm afraid he's been corrupted.

Getting back to the worldwide development of land-based aquaculture, it's going on in a lot of places, California particularly. Actually—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Maybe I'll just back you up just a bit, Professor. What projects would you say, again science-based as well, would actually work without negative implications to wild salmon, and what countries are doing that? What could Canada do better? You started off by saying, “land-based”. Is that the only science-proven aquaculture that works in the world today?

[Dr. Michael Dadswell]

No. There are lots of different species of fishes that are raised in sea cages, and we don't seem to have a salmon lice problem with them. It's probably because, being the species they are, they don't carry too many salmon lice on them. They haven't affected other things—like in Greece, for one place. The fishery has completely gone more or less there except for aquaculture, so there are no wild populations that they're causing any problems to.

I should tell people on the committee and some of the witnesses here that land-based aquaculture of fishes is doing very well in the Maritimes. We have companies raising halibut, salmon and striped bass. All these fish are showing up in the fish markets in Nova Scotia and the rest of the Maritimes. They're doing fairly well, and I have never heard a single complaint from anybody about them.

There is a lot of land-based aquaculture in other parts of the world as well. People understand that it's like growing chickens, where you have them in a nice little barn and 45 days later you have a whole bunch of chickens. It works very well. You just have to deal with disease problems within the enclosure more or less, and the same works for fish.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Professor.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Zimmer.

We'll now go to Mr. Hanley for five minutes or less, please.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much.

I will also take advantage of the time remaining for Mr. Chamberlin—Galagame'.

I'm from the Yukon, and I'm actually on this committee because of salmon, or my concerns about salmon. My question may be a little bit vague, but it's really going back to your point about the fundamental role of first nations in reconciliation and in being at the table in decisions about salmon.

My question is about governance and the relationship between the governance of B.C. first nations and the role that you play or should play. Is it a matter of goodwill? Is it a matter of governments? Are there fundamental changes in our relationships with first nations and provincial and federal partners that need to take place?

[Robert Chamberlin]

Thank you for your question.

When I consider that the provincial and federal governments have both made commitments to fulfill reconciliation, to implement the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, this to me is that evolution. We must not wait for the great big silver horse to come riding in with reconciliation in tow. We must find opportunities that present themselves to begin to implement meaningfully what that co-governance and shared decision-making can look like.

I think if we do this when opportunities arise, we are going to be able to demonstrate to Canadians that there is nothing to fear about first nations being in a consent-based, shared decision-making model, and that we can and, by and large, have fought to protect the environment and to have stronger environmental considerations in a wide range of different industries.

I believe that the global community is now crying out for and demanding greater environmental protection. In terms of salmon, this is an opportunity where, if the Government of Canada and the provinces were to implement this by creating some measure of roles within their system to engage with first nations—someone who has the respect and knowledge—this would facilitate the discussion. When you're talking about 203 first nations, you're talking about a lot of leadership, lots of different local concerns, but the global concern can be incorporated within the federal and provincial governments with some measure of first nation advisory roles.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much for that.

I'm trying to focus on solutions as we get towards the end of this study.

Ms. Sutcliffe, within DFO, are we talking about a process issue, a structural issue, a cultural issue? What would the next steps be to get CSAS and DFO to more of an integrated scientific approach? What would be your more immediate recommendations?

[Tasha Sutcliffe]

Thank you.

I would say, all of the above. It's quite a systemic issue, and the issues arise not the least from a lack of capacity and resources in the department. Even from the natural sciences side, certainly there are a lot of critiques on there needing to be more investment in stock assessment, for example.

Certainly I think capacity and resources to effectively develop a scientific framework, such as the one I described, is necessary, and always a challenging hurdle, but I think there are some fundamental approaches and thinking within the department that underscore culture, if you will, or maybe it's even training around what science is, and even what socio-economic science is. I've had very intelligent, good scientists within the department explain to me that what the department considers a socio-economic analysis, for example, is what I would actually refer to as a very shallow economic analysis. It doesn't go into enough detail on the basic economics around distribution of benefit, coastal community impacts, incomes, for example. I think there's a wholesale need to rebuild, really, the approach to science in DFO.

I'll think about some more clear recommendations around that in my written submission, because I think that's a really good question and I have a team of people who probably would be eager to contribute to it as well.

I should also emphasize the need for independence and transparency in that process.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

It would be great to get written submissions.

I'm getting the eye, so I guess I'm done. Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You've gone a little bit over, Mr. Hanley.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll start with Mr. Chamberlin.

Thank you, sir, for your expert testimony. I appreciate your concerns about the impact of fish farming on wild salmon stocks in British Columba. In fact, I'm concerned about that as well because I enjoy fishing salmon in British Columbia. I have quite a few friends there who love to take me salmon fishing.

I heard you mention independent science. What if we get the independent science you want and its findings don't match your opinion? Would you still consider it to be independent science?

[Robert Chamberlin]

When I comment about independent science, I envision a lab, a team of qualified, certified, experienced scientists accomplishing the same science as DFO, with an agreed-upon methodology, an agreed-upon process, where the outcome leads to truth, not something that is biased towards industry.

I posted a press release on my LinkedIn page, and I want to read to you what Dr. Kristi Miller-Saunders responded with:

A glaring case of industry’s right of refusal when it comes to dissemination of science. The only interpretation allowed is that put forward by industry. Federal and provincial governments knew about this study, and allowed it to stay blocked for 10 years while they funded other scientists to counter the findings.

That is what needs to be done away with, so that we have independent science.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

All right.

The Pacific Balance Pinniped Society has information that suggests that 50% of salmon smolts are eaten by pinnipeds in the estuaries as they enter the ocean. How would removing aquaculture remove that 50% risk of death by pinnipeds?

[Robert Chamberlin]

When we consider Justice Cohen's report, he was very clear there is not one industry or one impact that is annihilating the salmon in British Columbia. What we need is a holistic approach considering all of the stressors, all of the impacts, and reaching out and changing what we can when the opportunity arises. For fish farms that time is now.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Okay—

[Robert Chamberlin]

In terms of pinnipeds, I don't know enough about them. I know there is support for a culling, but there's also a need for watershed restoration and so forth to assist B.C. salmon.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Everyone is looking for the bogeyman. I'm sure a lot of the folks who are witnesses here are salmon fisher people themselves, and they've all had a salmon taken off their hook by a seal. There are countless videos on YouTube of seals removing salmon from the hooks of fishers.

There's a big question mark as to what's really destroying the B.C. salmon industry and wild populations. Who's the real bogeyman here?

[Robert Chamberlin]

There's a group of bogeymen. That's the thing. We need to identify them all and reduce them by whatever means is acceptable to protect wild salmon. Today, we don't have that. We don't have an eye for the protection of salmon in British Columbia. We have mitigation plans, which have failed endlessly.

I'm not in disagreement with you about the pinnipeds. I know that they represent an impact, but so do flooding, wildfires and fish farms. Where can we strategically address all of them, consistent with first nation views of environment and respecting the constitutional rights that first nations have?

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Do I have more time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have 11 seconds, but I'm going to chew that up now by telling you that your time is up.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for five minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier]

It's me now. Perfect. Thank you.

Thanks to all the witnesses for being with us today.

I'll speak in French for a large part.

Dr. Dadswell, you talked about Atlantic salmon, a topic I love. I have been a salmon angler for many years.

[Dr. Michael Dadswell]

I'm not getting the English translation, unfortunately.