Fisheries Committee on June 2nd, 2022

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I understand. I think that for us here in New Brunswick the licence fee goes up by the pound or by the quota you have. It's a little different, I think. Is that right?

[Keith Sullivan]

In the northern shrimp, we don't manage on individual quotas, so harvesters do not pay the IQ fee, but in the gulf they do.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I also see that you're asking for a little more science with DFO on the shrimp fisheries. Is that right?

[Keith Sullivan]

Yes. We are working with our colleagues in New Brunswick and Quebec to improve that as well.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

For next year, what do you think we should do regarding the quota?

[Keith Sullivan]

Well, I don't think we should automatically decide in advance what the quota is for the following year. I think we have to talk about the impacts and look at the latest science as well.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay. Thanks.

I think my time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here. Your remarks, which are always very interesting, provide a lot of food for thought.

Mr. Côté, some time ago, I met with lobster fishers from the Magdalen Islands who are part of your group. According to them, there is nothing more important than preserving the resource and its sustainability.

How do you explain the fact that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, or DFO, doesn't take your requests and scientific advice more into consideration?

[Jean Côté]

That's a good question.

As I often explain, there is a tendency to say that fishers are too involved and that our science is not as good as that of the researchers or of the department itself. However, I wanted to demonstrate earlier [Technical difficulty—Editor] that this is very useful to the department. We invest money, and sometimes we do it without help.

Most lobster fishers are multi‑species fishers who have experienced the cod moratorium and don't want to go through that again. So sustainability is essential.

It is important that the department take into account the assistance that fishers can provide, that it can also help them, even financially. Also, there may be a lack of resources in the department today. There were attritions a few years ago, and now it's difficult for the department to keep up. The department itself will need help to ensure that its advice and research are always up to date.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you for that excellent answer.

Environmental changes occurring as a result of climate change are surprising. Every day and every week, we learn new things. How can the committee support you in raising awareness with DFO? I'd like you to address my colleagues around the table because I think we are all very sensitive to the situation.

[Jean Côté]

Several presentations made this morning have shown that all the associations, wherever they are in the Atlantic, are very committed, and have been for a long time. I'm talking about non‑indigenous and indigenous associations. We can see that science can be conducted anywhere. Therefore, there must be more collaborative and participatory science.

Ms. Griffin said earlier that fishers could be present, that they could make their contribution. They are often the first to see what is happening at sea. We have to listen to that.

Ms. Giffin said that her organization was sometimes consulted, that things were presented to it, but that she was not listened to. It isn't the same. It's one thing to consult, but sometimes you have to take our advice and what we say into account. This is very important, and there really has to be a better connection between the science in the department and the science in all the associations, in Quebec and elsewhere in the Atlantic region.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Côté, have your attempts to obtain information always been in vain? At certain times, have you had access to certain information? Does that block more specific information?

[Jean Côté]

There is specific information where it gets blocked, but unfortunately I am not the person who handles these files in the office. Claire, who was supposed to be with me, could have answered the question better than I could, but the process of accessing information sometimes takes a long time.

Sometimes there is scientific research data that we would like to have on areas, and we don't have access to it. There really needs to be some kind of clarification, there needs to be more transparency about research and data, and there needs to be access for everyone.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Is there a way to get financial support? You say you're unable to get any. Your input is important, and I think it's difficult to sustain. When we see the investment you are making with fishers, we see your willingness to contribute. Financially, what is it that you're missing?

[Jean Côté]

There are already a number of programs. The department has implemented them. That's fine, and we thank them for it, but there are often restrictions on application or time.

Unfortunately, the last few programs often started on dates that did not allow us to respond within the prescribed time frame. When we are told a month or three weeks in advance that a project must be submitted, we don't have enough time to do so. We really need to be given time. Most organizations are small organizations with a certain number of employees, and it's difficult to submit projects on time. There must be reasonable time frames. At the moment, I would say that it is often a hindrance.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Côté.

[Jean Côté]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens. You're right on time.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses here today. It's nice to see you and hear all the valuable information you've contributed.

The first question I was hoping to ask is for Mr. Sullivan.

Mr. Sullivan, you spoke a bit about the importance of socio-economic sciences being integrated into CSAS processes. I'm wondering if you can expand on that—on what that might look like. Can you please add some thoughts to that?

[Keith Sullivan]

It goes back to what Melanie talked about: harvesters observing changes in the environment, very quickly. I recognize that it's difficult to get that information into a formal process, and we're challenged by that. There are ways to do it. I think having a more formal process, like input from logbooks, up front, as people talked about.... Having harvesters do more observer work and real-time science is a way to do that.

The Canadian Fisheries Research Network was also discussed. Mr. Côté talked about the Lobster Node, which did an awful lot of work in the natural sciences, but also in the related social sciences. I think there are opportunities to expand on these things, put more investment in them, and work with the harvesters up front.

I think we've been taking steps backwards in a lot of ways, whether it's in the management process or CSAS having fewer harvesters around the table. Just a few years ago, there was a section for harvester or stakeholder input—for something captured by harvesters that wasn't serious scientific observation. There was a place to note something like that. That got removed from the CSAS process. I think it's a number of things.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.

I agree on the importance of that interconnection. I appreciate your bringing that forward and highlighting some of what you saw.

Ms. Burridge, we saw, in the herring fishery, many fishers paying licence fees and finding out, after paying those licence fees, that there was a reduction occurring within the herring fishery.

I'm wondering if you can speak to this a bit. What are your thoughts? Should DFO be re-evaluating its licensing system to ensure that harvesters can make more informed decisions based on assessments? Please expand on that.

[Christina Burridge]

One of the frustrations for us is that there is no mechanism to renew licence fees. Licence fees for Pacific herring were set in the 1980s, I think, during the Japanese bubble, when Pacific herring was worth about 10 times as much as it is today. The same is true for Pacific salmon. The same fleet is paying, say, $4,000 for a licence at a time, when it perhaps doesn't know how much it's going to be able to catch. We certainly, for many years, have been calling for a review of licence fees to make sure that, at least on our coast—maybe as a one-off, because I know it's perhaps sensitive for some of my east coast colleagues—there is some mechanism to redress the situation, where the value has changed enormously over time and the licence fees are no longer fair.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Burridge.

I think I'll get only one more question in, but I'll try for more.

My next question is for Mr. Fisher.

Mr. Fisher, I'm wondering if you can expand a bit on the importance of having indigenous forms of knowledge, and how that sits alongside scientific knowledge. Can you speak a bit more about how the Lower Fraser Fisheries Alliance is doing this work, in practice?

[Aidan Fisher]

We have operated an indigenous knowledge collection program for over five years. It has developed in iteration a few times. Essentially, including indigenous knowledge in some of these processes is a challenge, because it's not collected in a way that's representative of the information. In order to produce indigenous knowledge that could be included in some of these processes, it really needs to come from the nation level, making sure the final product is reflective of what's actually there. In order to do that, you need to go to the communities and knowledge holders in order to truly understand where they come from and how to use the information in a respectful and good way, and for it not to get misconstrued or misunderstood in other processes. That's something we've been doing for five years or so.

Now, the challenge is, once we have this database available and collected, where is DFO going to use that? What I have seen of the CSAS process is that there's no real way for the process to include it. It's definitely something that CSAS could look at improving and taking into much greater consideration, moving forward.