Fisheries Committee on Oct. 25th, 2022

[Shawn Muise]

Yes. I was retrieving the end with the whalesafe gear on it. Whether it is a plastic weak link or a nylon sleeve, when it comes out of the water and goes around the block—the pulley that's over the side of the boat before it gets to the hauler—that's where the majority of the failures occur. The explosion of that plastic was right where my crew would be standing. It would have exploded in their faces. We made sure they were far enough away from that. However, that's just gear that made it to the surface. The majority of what I hauled didn't even make it to the surface.

This past Monday I was out in our offshore depths of 100 to 115 fathoms, and I didn't retrieve anything. We tried 10 times and didn't retrieve any of the gear. Fortunately, the other end didn't have any of those devices and I was able to retrieve the traps. That would have been a 100% failure. The cost and the amount of ghost gear would be alarming.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

When you did this in the conditions you were in, how did those conditions compare to what you would normally fish in in January, February or March?

[Daniel J. Fleck]

They were nothing like that. They were all ideal summer conditions with the biologists aboard. We tried to pick the days they could do their work, but we won't see those conditions in the fall. That's another concern.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

The cost is $4,000 plus a trap for 400 traps. How does that work for you as a fisherman?

[Shawn Muise]

With the margins we're looking at this fall with the rising fuel costs and everything else, I don't want to lose a single trap.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

I have a question for Mr. Haché.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins. You have about 10 seconds left. I don't think you'll get in a question or answer in that length of time, so I'll unfortunately cut you off there.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Haché, my first questions will be for you.

I would first like to thank you for the work your association has been doing since 2017, particularly concerning the protection of right whales and innovation in fishing methods.

We heard from other witnesses before you, with whom we discussed seasonal and temporary closures. Some of them also told us that these closures were excessive, since, as you said, the whales are sometimes in a certain location to feed, and certain areas are closed when they do not need to be.

We also talked about the tools used, such as acoustic buoys or overflights.

Do you think there is a way to improve the decision-making process concerning seasonal and temporary closures?

How can we do it?

[Robert Haché]

There is obviously a way to improve it. Some of the slides in my presentation clearly show that.

At the beginning of the season, the whales migrate and are concentrated in the centre of the gulf. During the migratory period, however, the department applies the same measures everywhere. Because of certain measures, areas that the whales left several weeks earlier are closed, so we will not be able to go there to fish.

Concerning the peripheries of the closure areas, some locations could be reopened, remain open, or be closed for much shorter periods. For example, when the whales migrate toward the centre of the gulf, the area could be closed for 10 days rather than 15 days. Those locations should not be closed for the entire season since we know the whales do not stay there. They go toward the centre of the gulf to feed and then leave for the United States.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We know the whales change location, because they will go where the food is.

Concerning the acoustic buoys, do you agree that if they are used for closing the areas, they could be used for opening the areas? The same could be true of overflights.

[Robert Haché]

Concerning the acoustic buoys, we think they should not even be used for closing areas unless there is visual or aerial observation of the whales. All the acoustic buoy does is hear the sounds within a 40 kilometre radius. The department then closes around the buoy.

The other problem, which is even worse, is that the department closes the area based on the sound from the buoy, but does not open it based on the sound from the buoy.

Obviously, if they want to continue using the acoustic buoys, then at a minimum, the sound of the whales has to be used to open and close areas.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Many people, including biologists, have concerns regarding weak-link ropes. They are afraid that these ropes, which are less resistant, cause more damage and remain in the water longer.

The department seems to want to move forward quickly because of certain measures in the Marine Mammal Protection Act, the MMPA, in the United States.

What do you think about that? Are we ready to put these weak-link ropes into use?

[Robert Haché]

No, that would be putting the cart before the horse, unlike what was done with ropeless fishing, where the department took the time to do testing and wait for the results.

This summer, we did tests on weak-link ropes. We have not yet seen the results, while the department is talking about putting it in place next spring. That is much too fast.

Concerning the tension we want to apply to these ropes, all the tests that have been done on this show that the ropes are going to create a ghost gear problem.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Right.

I don't know whether the other witnesses, Mr. Fleck, Mr. Muise and Ms. Mulock, talked about weak-link ropes or ropeless gear.

In our region, Mr. Haché, ropeless gear has actually been working relatively well so far, if I am not mistaken, according to the tests that have been done. I am talking about ropeless traps with an electronic system. Do they work relatively well?

[Robert Haché]

Yes. They work relatively well in fishing area 12, because the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence is kind of like a big pond. There are not a lot of very strong currents in that part of the gulf, unlike in other places, like the Nova Scotia region that other witnesses have mentioned.

Of course, in the areas that are closed to fishing, ropeless gear is becoming a really useful tool for fishers.

As always, this is not a recipe that can be applied in the same way everywhere. There are some places where certain tools work and other places where they do not work. We have to take the time to look at the situation and analyze it properly so as not to create undesirable situations.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Right.

I would ask you to answer my next question briefly.

Ms. Lyne Morissette and Ms. Moira Brown, who testified at the last meeting of the committee, said that our measures...

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Mr. Cormier, your time is up. I'm sorry. You have four seconds left, so I don't think you have time for a question or an answer.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

If you allow me, Mr. Chair, I am going to let Mr. Cormier finish asking his question. I am going to support his efforts again. I do not want to stop his momentum.

Mr. Cormier, finish asking your question about Ms. Morissette and Ms. Brown.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Ms. Desbiens. I invite you to have dinner with me next time I am in Ottawa.

Mr. Haché, at the last meeting, Ms. Moira Brown and Ms. Lyne Morissette, and also Mr. Sean Brillant, I believe, seemed to say that the measures taken in Canada in 2017, which have changed since then, were better and even exceeded the measures taken by the United States.

Do you agree with that statement?

[Robert Haché]

Yes. I agree completely with that statement. We have the evidence.

Now, the message that is circulating in the media, instead, is one that cultivates fear and conveys misinformation.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Right. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Desbiens. I turn the floor back over to you.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

I'm going to address you, Mr. Haché, because at the last meeting, Ms. Morissette and other witnesses talked to us about dynamic management of whale behaviour and dynamic closing of fishing areas using various tools.

Do you think this is a good option?

[Robert Haché]

Yes, it is a good option.

Unfortunately, since the measures for the whales started to be put in place, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has focused a lot of effort on protecting whales, without really looking at the possibilities to enable the fishery and the whales to coexist. However, measures could be put in place to do that.

We have been observing the whales' behaviour for five years and we know that the whales are concentrated toward the centre of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, in fact. We could therefore put more dynamic measures in place that take the evidence into account, as we go along.

The same applies to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, which currently requests closing of areas whenever it sees a whale. All fishers have to have left the area within 48 hours.

We can use the same kind of approach, that is, a flexible, rapid and immediate approach, to take measures that are sometimes more stringent, because the risks associated with fishing activities are higher, and sometimes less stringent, because the risks are lower. The risks are lower when the whales are all alone and moving in one direction, that is, toward the centre of the Gulf of St. Lawrence; the risks are higher when they are concentrated in an area and are moving among the ropes, if there are ropes there, to feed.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

We have also been told that there are certain kinds of fishing that is not done in deep water, but the fishers are victims of the same closure procedures as for other kinds of fishing. This may not be the case in your region and correct me if I am wrong. The purpose is to classify very specific areas in order to delineate the warmer and colder areas for the areas where whales are found.

Is that an idea that might be worth considering?

[Robert Haché]

These measures already exist. For example, places that are 20 fathoms deep or less are the best places for lobster fishing. Those measures are not really the same as the measures established for places that are 20 fathoms deep or more.

I am sure that some of my colleagues will be better able to inform you than I am about these measures, because they are people engaged in lobster fishing. That is actually one of the good options that the department chose, to show that, in fact, they can be flexible in managing these measures. It is an example that works.