Fisheries Committee on Oct. 28th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 38 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022.

Before we proceed, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. Please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For interpretation, those on Zoom have the choice at the bottom of their screen of floor, English or French. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. Please address all comments through the chair. Finally, I'll remind you that screenshots and taking photos of your screen are not permitted. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on January 20, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of the North Atlantic right whale.

We'll now go to opening remarks. I would like to welcome our first panel of witnesses. Representing the New Brunswick Crab Processors Association, we have Gilles Thériault. Representing the Rassemblement des pêcheurs et pêcheuses des côtes des Îles, we are joined by Charles Poirier, president, and Léona Renaud, director. Appearing as an individual, we have Mr. Glen Best, fish harvester and owner of Glen and Jerry Fisheries Inc. I'm sure Mr. Best has presented to committee before.

Thank you for taking the time to appear—

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

I would like you to confirm to the committee that the people attending the meeting virtually have carried out successful sound checks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

All the tests had been done before I said we were good to start.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for taking the time to appear today. You will each have up to five minutes for an opening statement.

I invite Mr. Thériault to begin, please.

[Gilles Thériault, President, New Brunswick Crab Processors Association]

Mr. Chair and committee members, thank you for inviting me to discuss the current situation regarding the status of the North Atlantic right whale as a species at risk.

My name is Gilles Thériault, and I am the president of the New Brunswick Crab Processors Association. Incidentally, I first got involved in fisheries development in Canada 50 years ago this year.

[Voices]

Hear, hear!

[Gilles Thériault]

Thank you very much.

Not to boast, but I have to tell you that I've seen it all over the years.

The appearance of North Atlantic right whales in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence in 2017 led to a major uproar, both here and elsewhere, after several unfortunate incidents that resulted in mortalities. Those incidents involved whales becoming entangled in trap lines and collisions between these marine mammals and vessels in our waterways. Six years later, we still haven't recovered. That's a really long crisis for this day and age.

No industry was harder hit or more strongly blamed than the snow crab industry, particularly by the U.S., but also around the world.

On behalf of the snow crab industry, I testified that we shifted from our initial reaction of seeing right whales as a nuisance to devoting an unprecedented level of effort to saving a species at risk. I've never seen anything like it in my career. This is being done as part of a new approach, one that favours management plans and innovative research and development programs for fishing gear modifications. The goal is co‑existence, so that fishers can continue to fish thanks to exceptional management measures put in place to protect whales.

The collaboration on this issue between processors and fishers has been unprecedented. The processors created a program called the Fisheries Improvement Program, and we launched the Fisheries Improvement Project. The fishers' associations are carrying out numerous projects to experiment with fishing gear, including one using on-demand buoy technology.

During this process, I've also observed outstanding collaboration between processors, fishers and both federal and provincial departments. Our objectives are to establish annual fishing plans and to facilitate the implementation of other important measures, such as harbour breakouts. Along the way, we have had our disagreements and many long discussions, but we have always kept our goal of co-existence in mind, to give whales as much protection as possible while allowing our snow crab quotas to be captured to the extent possible. In my opinion, the work isn't over and the battle hasn't been won.

I have to tell you that I'm pinning a lot of hopes on on-demand buoy technology, more commonly known as ropeless fishing. I think that fishers have put so much effort into developing this fishing technique that they have a head start on the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. DFO has some catching up to do in terms of developing fisheries management measures using this new technology.

This year, 18 fishers used this technology, and they were able to fish in the closed areas where whales were believed to be present. For the first time, a significant amount of crab was fished commercially using this new technology. This is a major breakthrough that's creating a lot of interest in all quarters. It's a first, and in the not-so-distant future, it could change the way all trap fishing is done in closed areas, to protect species at risk like the right whale.

Our fishers are pioneering a revolutionary fishing technique that I believe will one day be used around the world.

DFO urgently needs to support the fishers' efforts by immediately implementing management measures and scientific analyses to prevent chaos at sea and expedite the growth of this new technology in as quick and orderly a manner as possible.

Thank you for listening.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We'll now go to a joint statement. I now invite Ms. Renaud and Mr. Poirier to give their opening statement, please.

You have five minutes.

[Charles Poirier, President, Rassemblement des pêcheurs et pêcheuses des côtes des Îles]

Hello.

My name is Charles Poirier, and I'm the president of the Rassemblement des pêcheurs et pêcheuses des côtes des Îles, or RPPCI. I'm here with Léona Renaud, the director of our organization.

RPPCI is a non-profit organization that was founded in 2015 by lobster fishers. Today, it represents more than 200 coastal fishers from the Magdalen Islands, fishing a variety of species, and it's the largest organization in Quebec.

RPPCI's mission is to promote the collective interests of coastal fishers and support their advancement. It also seeks to harness fishers' collective strengths, at both the local and national levels, and to develop partnerships and common strategies with other associations and groups to move forward on issues.

RPPCI believes that the coastal fishery is, and always will be, the fishery that is the best for the marine environment, the most sustainable and the most beneficial for the local economy.

Since it was founded, RPPCI has carried out a number of scientific projects for the advancement of the fisheries, while taking into account the climate change that affects us all and the preservation of ocean resources. RPPCI is a member of several fisheries-related committees and working groups.

Today, we want to outline our concerns about the presence of the North Atlantic right whale in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and its impact on our fishers. We submitted a brief to the committee. I won't read out the whole thing. Right now, I want to talk about the current situation and what RPPCI is proposing.

As mentioned, RPPCI has participated in many presentations and meetings on the subject of adapting fishing gear with a view to reducing the risk of entanglement for North Atlantic right whales. Numerous discussions have also been held among fishers in the Magdalen Islands regarding the possibility of modifying their fishing gear.

No matter what species they fish, fishers on the Magdalen Islands unanimously agree that, given the ocean currents around the Magdalen Islands and in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, it would be unrealistic to think the types of ropes tested by lobster fishers around the Gaspé Peninsula are suitable for the ocean currents to which the Magdalen Islands are exposed. With concrete slabs already weighing 1,700 pounds, there is no question that Magdalen Islands fishers will need gear that can support at least 2,000 pounds.

RPPCI therefore proposed concrete steps that could have been taken in the spring of 2022 and that would have reduced the risk of entanglement for right whales moving around the Magdalen Islands. RPPCI is asking Fisheries and Oceans Canada to amend the grid closure protocol and the 10‑ and 20‑fathom protocol lines around the Magdalen Islands. The lines that RPPCI is proposing are shown in the table attached to our brief.

Furthermore, given that the Magdalen Islands sector is part of the right whales' transit corridor in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, RPPCI is proposing to use its boat RPPCI to detect and monitor whales as they move through the waters around the Magdalen Islands, especially in fishing area 22, where Magdalen Islands lobster fishers are concentrated.

When a whale is detected in area 22 at a depth of 20 fathoms or less, RPPCI is willing to send its boat and its captain to monitor the whale until it leaves the sector. However, if the whale remains in area 22 for more than 48 hours, RPPCI agrees to an “active” closure, where certain grids would be closed while the whale is monitored more closely. RPPCI proposes that, before the grid closure protocol is triggered, the whale should have to be sighted in the area for two consecutive days before the closure and the closure should not last more than 48 hours.

If the right whale is still in the fishing area at the end of the two-day period, RPPCI would like DFO to modify the protocol regarding the duration of the grid closure. Instead of a 14‑day closure from the outset, reduce the closure to seven days.

In conclusion, I would like to point out that the Magdalen Islands are right in the middle of the Gulf of St. Lawrence. All whales travelling through the gulf swim by the islands. Our little community is home to 325 lobster fishers and a dozen crab fishers. Lobster fishing is the biggest economic activity in the Magdalen Islands. When the lobster fishery closes, the local economy essentially shuts down. Without lobster fishing, the economy of the Magdalen Islands falls apart.

That is why we are requesting changes to the protocol. We previously asked for this in 2021, because all of the whales that enter the Gulf of St. Lawrence swim by the Magdalen Islands. That's dangerous for our community. We want to protect them, of course, but as far as we know, no whale has ever come near our sector at a depth of less than 10 fathoms.

Today was our first opportunity to present our brief to you. We want to thank those who invited us to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Excuse me, Mr. Poirier. I am going to have to cut you off there. We have gone way over the five-minute time limit. Hopefully, anything else you had to add will come out in round two questioning.

We'll now go to Mr. Best for five minutes or less, please.

[Glen Best, Fish Harvester, Glen and Jerry Fisheries Inc., As an Individual]

Good afternoon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and committee members, for giving me the opportunity to present before the committee today.

My brother and I are fourth-generation fishers who operate 18-foot to 65-foot fishing vessels and employ 18 crew members. The crab fishery represents approximately 85% of our revenue. As the Newfoundland snow crab fishery had a landed value of $624 million in 2021, you can appreciate how important the crab fishery is to our fishing operation as well as rural communities and Newfoundland and Labrador as a whole. Without shellfish, rural communities would not resemble what they are today, but rather struggle to survive.

I have fished for 34 years, operating out of Fogo on the northeast coast of Newfoundland. I have to say that every time I see whale, and I've seen hundreds, it's still an amazing experience. I want to see our marine ecosystem thrive while doing the least harm possible. In those 34 years, I have never seen a right whale, let alone an entanglement. Only once have I ever heard of a whale entanglement of any species in crab gear.

If you reference the interactive North Atlantic right whale map on the DFO website and select October 2015 to present, this map shows only four confirmed right whale sightings on the east and northeast coast in this time period. The clerk can forward you the link upon request. One of these sightings occurred in September while three occurred in November. During these months there is no crab or lobster fisheries taking place and indeed very little fixed gear activity of any type.

Still with no impact on right whales in these areas, we are still mandated to use new whalesafe ropes that are not proven effective, while places like Nunavut and British Columbia are exempt because they are deemed not to have whale entanglements. As harvesters we have taken measures in the past to protect whales and satisfy the MMPA rules, including rope markings to identify area and fishery in case of an entanglement, plus minimizing slack rope at the surface.

Since these measures were introduced, has there been any evidence that these fisheries from the east and northeast coast or Labrador fisheries have entangled right whales?

In regard to whalesafe rope, you have to appreciate the environment we operate in. We need to impress upon DFO that a one-size-fits-all solution doesn't work for all fisheries and regions. In the gulf, some harvesters operate single traps, which increases the density of vertical lines in the water. In Newfoundland, we use fleets of pots with about 70 pots per fleet, with one vertical line at each end, posing much less risk for these whales.

During the limited consultation last winter, fishers were informed that the 1,700-pound weak link would be implemented in all fisheries. You have to appreciate that includes a lobster fisher in two fathoms of water, crab fishery in 200 fathoms to turbot fishing on the edge of the continental shelf in depths down to 650 fathoms.

Our vessels fish in very harsh conditions starting April 1 with crab, early in the year to avoid mortality from softshell as the season progresses. With that early start comes challenging conditions from ice to heavy seas. It is not uncommon to haul gear in four- to six-metre swells. Just picture a 65-foot vessel at 150 tonnes hauling up a fleet of crab pots from 1,200 feet of water full of snow crab in four- to six-metre swells. As the vessel rises on the swells the 1,700-pound weak link will certainly break. The physics don't add up. Ropeless technology is far from proven or practical. Why are we trying to create a solution for a problem we don't have in our fishing areas in the first place?

North Atlantic right whales have been in the media often, with groups such as the Monterey Bay Aquarium Seafood Watch advising people to avoid east coast Canadian crab and lobster. This information is not correct and portrays that all crab and lobster fisheries in eastern Canada are harmful to right whales. The department instead should be prioritizing their work in areas where there is deemed to be a problem and focus their resources there, while educating environmental groups and promoting the positive side of the crab fisheries where there are not any entanglements.

It is so easy to place blame on the fishing industry when gear seen on a whale is tangible. How much research is done on other industries to see what the effects are? Noise from busy shipping lanes, pollution and seismic activity that emits huge underwater air blasts are all concerns for fishers. Maybe you can understand why we feel unfairly targeted.

In closing, I will say no fisherman wants or can afford to lose gear. We have taken measures in the past, including biodegradable twine in crab pots, to allow escapement from ghost gear. With these regulations for implementing whalesafe rope, we are actually increasing the chance of more ghost gear and increasing the risk to the marine ecosystem, the very opposite of the goal. The department is trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist in one area, but it is actually causing a much bigger one.

The department must not forget that, with all the new rules and regulations, managing the species that live in the ocean is critically important but, in turn, managing the people who work on it and earn their livelihoods from it must not be forgotten.

Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Best. That was dead on the mark for your time.

We'll now begin the first round of questions.

We'll first go to Mr. Small for six minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for taking part in this very important study, a study that will have an effect on the social and economic well-being of all affected.

My first question is going to be for Mr. Poirier.

In which direction does the Gulf Stream flow? Does it bring water from the United States into your area?

[Charles Poirier]

Do you know where the Gulf of St. Lawrence is? The Magdalen Islands are right in the middle of the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The whales enter through the Cabot Strait and head directly for the area around the tip of the Gaspé Peninsula. That's where the whales migrate and feed for the rest of the season.

That means they have to pass directly through the Magdalen Islands, which—

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Poirier, what I meant was this: Does the water coming into the Gulf of St. Lawrence not come up the eastern seaboard? The current direction, does it bring water from the eastern seaboard of the U.S. into the Gulf of St. Lawrence, yes or no?

[Charles Poirier]

I don't know enough about geography to answer that question.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I don't think the Labrador Current comes down through from Labrador that way. I think, from what I can find.... I just wanted you to enlighten us on it.

Would it be possible that dead whales could be coming up from the United States into your area with the current in the Gulf Stream and not, in fact, dying where they're found but dying south of the border?

[Charles Poirier]

I can't answer that question.

What I do know is that the whales entering the Gulf of St. Lawrence follow the Gulf Stream, and they come directly from the United States. We all know that. They migrate here, and then they go back south to the U.S. in November or December. I can say that much for certain.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

Mr. Best, if this ropeless technology comes in, how difficult will it be for you to avoid the gear of fellow fishers or even your own gear? When you're setting up your gear, you could set it up on top of your own or others. How would you find ropeless technology in your area?

[Glen Best]

I'll have to say, from limited consultation, that I really don't have a lot of information that's been given or that I know of on this coast. I don't really know how it will work and the impacts it would have on us because we don't have the information. That leads to the point that, this implementation in a short period of time, I don't know how it can proceed.

In terms of gear conflict, we have lots of gear conflict as it is when we have markings at the surface. Nobody has told us how ropeless gear will work, how we will avoid another person's gear or how we'll even know that person's gear is there when we go there to fish. Sometimes you can get a high concentration of fishers in one area, so these are a lot of questions that I don't really know the answers to. I've thought about those and it really concerns me, but I don't really have a definite answer for you. All I know is that there are so many unknowns.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Are you satisfied with the level of consultation that DFO has had with harvesters at this stage in this process?

[Glen Best]

I can say adamantly that, no, we're not satisfied. You probably heard from Mr. Keith Sullivan in his presentation a few days ago.

I was part of those two Zoom meetings last year. I was in on two and I think there were probably three. That's probably the limit of the consultation that was presented to us as fish harvesters. All that was talked about were ideas of what we could do and some of the different technologies that could be tried and tested. There was nothing concrete. There was nothing that would tell us that they have this straightened out, and we can go forward on January 1, 2023, to confidently use this gear, retrieve the gear and not have a bunch of gear sitting at the bottom causing another environmental mess.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Best, previous witnesses stated that they had a goal to reduce the risk of entanglement by 90%.

Given the facts that you just outlined, what do you think the risk of entanglement would be for right whales in the fixed-gear fishery in 2J, 3K and 3L?

[Glen Best]

Just to be clear, are you talking solely about right whales?