Fisheries Committee on Nov. 15th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I now call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 41 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022.

Before we proceed, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

There is interpretation for those on Zoom. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

Please address all comments through the chair.

Finally, just as a reminder, taking screenshots or photos of your screen is not permitted. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting. We're still trying to reach one witness who is not online. The test will be done when he gets in touch, or when they join the meeting.

Before we begin hearing from our witnesses today, I would simply like to get one item of committee business out of the way.

Yesterday members received two draft budgets for review. One was for the study on the closure of mackerel fishing and the other was for the study on the impacts of the climate crisis.

Does the committee agree to adopt both proposed budgets?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

They're going to take my lunch back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

They'll take more than that back.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on September 20, 2022, the committee is resuming its study on the closure of mackerel fishing in Atlantic Canada and the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

I would like to welcome our first panel of witnesses.

Representing the Maritime Fishermen's Union, we have Louis Ferguson, assistant director, Homarus, and Martin Mallet, executive director. Representing the P.E.I. Fishermen's Association are Melanie Giffin, marine biologist and industry program planner, and Nathan Cheverie, fisher and co-chair of the mackerel advisory committee.

We're still missing Mr. Hubley.

Thank you for taking the time to appear before the committee today. You will each have up to five minutes for an opening statement.

I'll invite the Maritime Fishermen's Union to begin, please. I don't know if you're sharing your statement or if one of you is doing it alone.

You have the floor for five minutes or less, please.

[Martin Mallet, Executive Director, Maritime Fishermen's Union]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the committee for allowing us to present today.

My name is Martin Mallet. I'll be sharing my time today with Louis Ferguson, the assistant director of our R and D branch, Homarus Inc.

I'll be speaking in French.

The decision to completely close the mackerel fishery affected our members, both commercial fishers and bait fishers. Once again, very little notice was given even though our fishers were preparing for the upcoming season.

In the last assessment of the mackerel stock in 2020, according to DFO's science sector, instead of imposing a complete moratorium, reducing the contingent by 4,000 tonnes for 2022, a 50% drop from the previous year, would still have allowed for a 79% increase in the spawning biomass. That would have been a significant reduction, but not a complete moratorium. It would have reflected the socio-economic value of this resource for the entire Atlantic region.

The complete closure of the mackerel fishery was an extreme and unwarranted measure. It was announced at the last minute, without any regard for the fishers who had incurred expenses to get ready for the start of the 2022 season. Moreover, the mackerel stock is shared with the United States. Even to this day, there is no joint management plan with the Americans, who continue to fish the same mackerel stock while we have to sit on our docks and watch them.

Here are a few recommendations for the committee.

First, we think a joint management agreement with the U.S. should have been developed before deciding on a complete closure of this part of the Canadian fishery. Such an agreement is necessary for the sustainable management of this resource in its entire distribution area.

Second, the MFU has made various recommendations in the past to better protect the resource and optimize mackerel spawning, but to no avail. In our opinion and that of other inshore fishers' associations, the gradual decline of this resource can in large part be attributed to the increase in seine fishing, and not inshore gillnet and handline fishing. With this type of gear, the fish are not selected by size and the small fish cannot escape to continue growing and reach the minimum size for spawning. If we want to continue seine fishing, the fish quotas have to be adjusted since this catching method is not selective. The reopening of this fishery will have to emphasize sustainable catching methods.

Third, climate change results in weather extremes and variations each year. Our fishers see the effects of these changes in variations in time and location of the species they fish, to which they must adapt in order to catch the fish. We also have to bring our scientific stock assessment into line with the schedule of the species we wish to study, and not the bureaucrats' schedule. Climate change is changing the marine ecosystem. These considerations must be included in the scientific analysis and stock assessment of all our species.

Fourth, we recommend an in‑depth study of the predator-prey relationship among the various seal species and mackerel. For example, current studies on the stomach contents of seals are conducted in the winter, although mackerel is not even in the Gulf of St. Lawrence at that time. Any additional information gathered would be useful and would allow us to better understand the issues in the mackerel population.

Fifth, any reopening plan must also include the development of a sustainable seal hunt. The loss of the seal hunt culture and the shortage of hunters in our communities are among the main obstacles to resolving this issue. We must at least address the regulatory obstacles, and support and promote the training of new commercial and recreational hunters, and seal products in Canada. That would be a good opportunity to include the first nations and to build partnerships with them.

Sixth, fishers are facing huge increases in their operating costs as a result of inflation. These increases are also the result of the additional inflation attributable to the closure of the fishery, in terms of their traditional bait. For example, the price of bait mackerel purchased from international markets has risen by 32% this year. We want bait fishing by handline to be reopened for 2023. That fishery would also serve to restore part of the science dependent on the fishery that was lost this year owing to the moratorium.

Seventh and finally, a number of fishers rely on pelagic fishing for their livelihood and are seriously hurt by the moratorium. Establishing a program similar to the sustainability measures program for the Atlantic lobster fishery, namely, the integrated fisheries management plan, which was quite successful in the early 2010s, would help restructure and rationalize this sector of the fishery. It would also support the related science in order to gain a better understanding of the species in the context of climate change, and support the creation of bait alternatives.

Thank you for your attention.

We will be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We'll now go to representatives of the P.E.I. Fishermen's Association for a statement of five minute or less, please.

[Melanie Giffin, Marine Biologist and Industry Program Planner, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association]

Thank you very much. I will be giving the opening statement and Nathan will be available for comments.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and members of this committee for the invitation to speak to you today.

The P.E.I. Fishermen's Association was created in the 1950s to approach the federal government with one united voice. The PEIFA has evolved alongside the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to create the well-established working relationship we still maintain today.

Our goal in being here today is to focus on mackerel science and therefore management measures as they relate to Prince Edward Island.

The PEIFA would first like to thank the department and the minister for taking steps to try to rebuild the stock. Although we all have different opinions on the method, we all agree that we need to work together for a sustainable stock in the future.

It has been made clear over the last few years that simply decreasing the TAC is not a solution for rebuilding the stock. It's time to start thinking outside the box for new management measures that allow a fishery while also increasing the biomass. Numerous recommendations have been submitted by multiple fishing organizations during the Atlantic Mackerel Advisory Committee meetings, but these recommendations consistently seem to fall on deaf ears.

Originally, the PEIFA sent a formal letter containing our recommendations to the chair of the advisory committee, but soon changed this practice. It now sends them straight to the minister to ensure everything being recommended during AMAC actually reaches the minister. There is no transparency back to the members of the AMAC table regarding what is shared with the minister.

The following is a summary of some of the key recommendations the PEIFA has made at AMAC over the past 10 years.

In 2012, the PEIFA recommended the establishment of a small fish protocol, an increase in minimum size—specifically noting this was for protection for future generations—and a decrease in TAC.

In 2014, decreasing the TAC, increasing the minimum size, minimizing the seining fleet, a mackerel working group, additional research and a hailing system were all recommended.

In 2018, an increase in minimum size, an increase in dockside monitoring, increased enforcement and increased mesh size were included in the recommendations.

In 2019, all previous recommendations listed continued to be submitted, but a better understanding of the predator-prey relationship with seals was also added to the list of recommendations from the PEIFA at AMAC.

As was stated by DFO at the 4RST Groundfish Advisory Committee meeting, a grey seal reduction greater than 65% is required to witness any rebuilding of the southern cod, hake, plaice and other groundfish stocks in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Based on a literature review done by the PEIFA, it appears there are numerous biases in the work being done on seal diet. Some studies are done during winter, when mackerel have left the gulf. Other studies are done when seals are not eating, during haulout periods.

It is recommended that these biases be addressed in proper spatial and temporal studies and these data be included in the mackerel stock assessment to better understand the predator-prey relationship between seals and mackerel.

In 2020, again all previous recommendations listed were submitted to the AMAC table, but a graph, which is included in the document, became available to the PEIFA from DFO that prompted the addition of a recommendation for a moratorium on the seining fleet until mackerel stocks recovered to the healthy zone.

This was based on evidence presented by DFO, which stated that up to “the early 2000s, gillnets, jiggers and traps accounted for the majority of Canadian mackerel catches. The majority of catches from the mid 2000's on have been by small...and large seiners...which were used primarily in Newfoundland. Between 2002 and 2007, small seine landings ranged from” about 11,000 tonnes to 30,000 tonnes, and large seine landings from about 6,000 tonnes to 15,000 tonnes. DFO noted that, “In more recent years, small seiners...have landed the majority of the catch in the commercial fishery.”

This paragraph clearly identifies the gear type that is capable of the highest catch rates and therefore the starting point for effective change in this fishery. The graph clearly shows this, if you take a look at the colour version.

It is important that members of this committee see that industry has been making recommendations related to the protection of the stocks annually for at least 10 years. Although the recommendations listed here are only from the PEIFA, other organizations also made recommendations during the same timeline.

The last key issue we want to shed light on is how the American fishery affects the Canadian biomass.

The northern contingent of Atlantic mackerel spawn in the gulf, but then go to the U.S. over the winter, where there is no minimum size during the fishery. As long as there is a fishery happening in the U.S., decreasing the TAC in Canada does not aid in rebuilding the stock.

To add insult to this scenario, fishers in Canada are then forced to purchase undersized mackerel from the U.S. to use as bait in their own fishery.

The PEIFA is aware that this is a complex issue. We want to work with DFO to find a solution, but members of the mackerel industry are left asking what they have to do to reopen the fishery, considering that the recommendations being made are not being addressed.

Members of the PEIFA would love to see either the minister or deputy minister of Fisheries attend the next AMAC meeting to hear the issues directly from the harvesters.

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

I see that Mr. Hubley has joined us from the Prospect Area Full-Time Fishermen’s Association.

For your opening statement, sir, you have five minutes or less.

[Scott Hubley, Fisherman, Prospect Area Full-Time Fishermen’s Association]

I'm here representing PAFFA, which stands for the Prospect Area Full-Time Fishermen’s Association. I just want to see what's going to be done here.

I'm good. I'll talk to you later. I'm just listening.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay. Thank you for that.

We'll go right to our rounds of questioning. I'll remind members to please identify who the question is for, instead of just staring at the screen.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for six minutes or less.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for taking the time to be involved in our valuable study.

I have a question for Mr. Mallet on co-management. I heard him mention co-management with the United States. Could you give a brief outline in 30 seconds or less of what you mean by that?

[Martin Mallet]

Very briefly—and I think Ms. Giffin also alluded to the same idea—there should have been some kind of co-management structure with the U.S., so that if there are any measures taken in Canada, some similar measures are taken in the the U.S. so that we can tackle the same issues at the same time. This was mentioned by Ms. Giffin.

If we support or invest in measures here protecting, say, a small fish, and they are taking the fish out in the U.S., we're making all of these sacrifices here in Canada for nothing.

Who's paying for this at the end of the day? It's our inshore fisherman fleet. It's nobody else.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, my next question is for Ms. Giffin.

I just received some information that the United States has increased their TAC by an extra thousand tonnes. What do you think of that, Ms. Giffin? Why do you think the United States would increase their mackerel quota mid-season? Do you think they found that there are more mackerel than they originally estimated?

[Melanie Giffin]

Thank you for the question.

I can honestly say that I did not hear that they had increased their TAC during the season. I can't pretend to understand why they would.

The scientists from the U.S. are involved in the Canadian stock assessments, as the Canadian scientists are involved in the American stock assessments. Both have seen an extreme decline in previous years.

I don't want to venture a guess as to why they would feel it was acceptable to increase their TAC during this season.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Again, this question is for you, Ms. Giffin.

We've had numerous accounts of how plentiful mackerel are. That's coming from all over Atlantic Canada. I don't know if you've seen those accounts in P.E.I., but I know P.E.I. has some of the warmest waters in Atlantic Canada. That's for sure.

If there's a warming of the water and the mackerel shift their migrations, would it be an area with much warmer water that was impacted the hardest by that, such as P.E.I.?

[Melanie Giffin]

It's a possibility.

If anecdotally we hear there are increased numbers of small fish, the key here is that in Canada, we can't fish those small fish. We protect them. When they go to the U.S., if there are anecdotally more fish—maybe that's what they are seeing as well—in the U.S., there's no minimum size. They can take those small fish before they ever have an opportunity to spawn.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Before you go on, Mr. Small, I have stopped the clock. The lights are blinking. There's a notice of a vote that will be taking place. I don't know if it's a 15-minute bell or a 30-minute bell.

Is the committee okay with continuing on as normal until we get to the actual vote, and then take a few minutes so that we can all do it electronically, instead of leaving the room?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay.

You can continue, Mr. Small.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Mallet, what have you heard coming out of areas in Atlantic Canada as to the plentifulness of mackerel this year? Have you heard any contradictory observations that there are a lot more mackerel than the DFO is estimating?

[Martin Mallet]

I may share this answer with Mr. Ferguson here, but we've heard reports all across the spring and the summer and especially fall where there seem to be shifts in the patterns of distribution. Small mackerel are seen in some times of the year where we're not used to seeing them at that time, but also much larger mackerel schools are coming in close to shore later in the summer, especially in late fall.

Louis, do you want to add something there?

[Louis Ferguson, Assistant Director, Homarus, Maritime Fishermen's Union]

No. Mr. Mallet did actually cover what fishermen have observed on the water.

As for the other part of the question—to compare with what DFO science is seeing—it's hard to say, because it's in the water. It would have to be broader scientific modelling to see that.

[Martin Mallet]

I would just add that without any fishing activity on the water, we've lost a significant amount of science capability just this year. What we're seeing are observations, but at the end of the day, that's not a science protocol. We would need to have people on the water full time to do an actual study of what we're seeing and what changes are going on in the ecosystem around climate change.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Then, Mr. Mallet, without that harvester logbook information, there's a big part of the science missing.

How much did the DFO put into stock assessment? With regard to the information, how much of that logbook information actually went into stock assessment? Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it 2019 when we had the last egg survey in the gulf? However, since then, we've had a lot of logbook data, so is the DFO evaluating this properly?

[Martin Mallet]

Who wants to take that one?