Fisheries Committee on Nov. 18th, 2022

[Mitchell Jollimore]

First of all, happy birthday.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you.

[Mitchell Jollimore]

I think we can all agree that the weather now is definitely more severe and different from what we've seen. I've been a captain for 19 seasons, and the last three to five have definitely been worse than any previous ones. I don't think it's safe for us to say we all agree on how that's happening or on one specific reason why it's happening, but I think we can all agree that the weather we're seeing now is more intense than it was before and we're starting to see storms of the century every other year.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

We probably could all agree then that we had better get our act together collectively as governments and industry and come up with a long-term plan. Can we agree on that?

[Mitchell Jollimore]

Definitely.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Going back briefly to Molly or to one of the other witnesses, we are unique in Prince Edward Island given our large mussel industry, which has been significantly impacted, as has our oyster aquaculture.

Molly, could you comment on the impact on those?

We know the impact on harbour infrastructure was significant and we recognize that it must be improved, but can you touch briefly on what has to be done to rebuild the mussel farming and oyster aquaculture?

[Molly Aylward]

Thank you for your question.

Aquaculture is not part of PEIFA's mandate. That's part of the mandate of the aquaculture alliance.

I do know anecdotally from speaking with people who work in the industry that there has been a great deal of devastation there as well, and maybe even more so than in some of the other fisheries. Outside of that, I couldn't speak to that specifically, Mr. Morrissey.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

That's fair. They will be appearing.

Chair, that's my only question. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Your time is up.

We'll now go to Madam Desbiens for six minutes or less.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses again. We are very pleased to have you with us.

I obviously want to talk to you about Quebec and its problems. However, you represent other regions that are still facing the same problems. Indeed, there is a major climate shock. Hurricane Fiona has also hit the Magdalen Islands very hard. They are your neighbours and, probably in some respects, your collaborators because of the processors and some exchanges of expertise. I know that the Magdalen Islands have a good relationship with most of you.

Shoreline erosion, climate change, storms and hurricanes threaten even the Magdalen Islands with extinction. The maritime provinces will be next. So the situation is very serious. Right now, we are obviously discussing a quick fix.

My father, who is an experienced sailor, would say that this is a poultice on a wooden leg. We're urgently discussing quick fixes to get you back to fishing. I think that's very commendable. It is imperative for you to have funding that will enable you to get back to the sea and back to fishing.

On another note, I would like to get your impression of where the government is going right now in putting more money into oil, for example, in Bay du Nord or the Trans Mountain project.

Shouldn't we be taking that money to start a green shift that would make your fishing operations more climate proof and do more to fight climate change? Do you think the government is doing enough to fight climate change?

My question is for Ms. Smith and Mr. Watts.

[Gerard Watts]

Do I think the government is doing enough to fight fossil fuels? Well, I don't know what defines “enough”. It's a difficult task.

I think we're working somewhat towards that, but I also think, to quote Mr. Morrissey, that we all need to be working together on this, all parties, because it's certainly here, and I think that if we don't do something, we're going to be in worse shape. We just need to get it together and have everybody get behind the plow and get it done.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Jollimore, is there anything you would like to add?

We can't hear you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You're on mute, Mr. Jollimore.

[Mitchell Jollimore]

Yes, we're good. I'm sorry.

In terms of fighting fossil fuels, I mean, we're here to discuss the effects of Fiona, which were wide and great, and I don't know if we've got enough minutes in the day to discuss a plan for that and whether the plan we're on right now is right or not. I think that's something we're going to have to judge a long time from now—hopefully, a long time from now—but if you'd like to speak about Fiona and what it's done to the wharves, our business community and our fishing community, I'd be happy to answer that.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

There will be other effects like Fiona's. I honestly don't think we'll ever have enough money to prepare for what's coming. Of course, the money should be used to save your small harbours and facilities, so that you can get back to fishing, but shouldn't there also be an urgent need to think of an immediate plan to prevent you from being hit even harder next year, in two years, and so on?

At some point, we're going to run out of money to adjust to the severity of the situation. I'm concerned about that and I wanted to get your agreement on it. I know we're here to discuss your infrastructure, of course, but I feel that both of these topics need to be raised in this study, as they are directly related.

Ms. Smith, you seem interested in what I am saying. I am listening to you.

[Ariel Smith]

Yes, I'd like to say something. I do think there needs to be a more concerted effort to be proactive rather than reactive in these situations when it comes to severe weather events.

As I briefly mentioned at the end of my statement, but that I think requires more delving into, there is the use of natural infrastructure to protect our coastlines, particularly at wharves and areas where fishing-related gear can be damaged and can be washed out to the ocean. Those types of infrastructure need more attention in Atlantic Canada, but also in Canada overall.

Small options for that are possible, but massive coastlines also could be integrated for a natural infrastructure, as we're seeing in examples in Mahone Bay, Nova Scotia. A small portion of the shoreline has been piloted to see what nature-based infrastructure could look like in working with our coasts. Rather than building up rocks and walls, we actually need to implement this in a more concerted way for the Maritimes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madam Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm sure you've noticed this, but perhaps I can just point it out. I worry about future opportunities for our witnesses to be able to share what they've shared today, and I notice that every time Mr. Watts speaks, the camera is coming up on Mr. Jollimore. I'm not certain if that's something we want to address before we continue the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Well, we haven't got much time, but I believe they might be in the same room and when one speaks it activates the other mike, but we are hearing Mr. Watts fine and we hear Mr. Jollimore fine.

We can shut down the meeting and try to straighten it out, but we only have until three o'clock, so your six minutes are counting down.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to make sure it was being addressed.

Thank you very much to the witnesses for being here today.

My understanding of why we're here today, and of the motion put forward around the study, is that we're here to learn not just about the impacts of hurricane Fiona—the costs, the damages, the impacts on human life and all of that—but also from these impacts. The reality is that we are in a climate crisis. We're feeling the impacts of the climate crisis. That was the reason that in my questions for the ministers I was talking specifically about that. We continue to experience the impacts of the climate crisis and then try to put band-aid solutions in response to the climate crisis. That doesn't actually help us in any way, because we need to be making some big changes in order to reduce the rate of extreme weather patterns that we're seeing.

To my mind, with the impacts we're seeing right now, our taking this time to look at it is an opportunity for us to discover how we can do things differently. I appreciate the term nature-based infrastructure that was used by Ms. Smith. I've been referring to it as green infrastructure, but we're all talking about the same thing. I would like us to be able to build on that in order to understand not only how we mitigate the impacts of it but also how we create infrastructure that will reduce the impacts moving forward, and of course the damages that we've already created.

I could go on for six minutes on a tangent on this all alone, but I don't want to do that, because I want to hear from you all.

Ms. Smith, you started to touch on this in relation to a question from my colleague Madam Desbiens. Can you expand a little bit further on what you see as effective nature-based infrastructure that we could be putting in? Can you speak a little bit to the ghost gear, the impacts of the ghost gear, and how we can do things differently around that? I'm trying to understand your thoughts on that a little bit more.

[Ariel Smith]

Thank you for the question.

Yes. I think there are two things that have been working very separately right now. What Coastal Action is trying to do is connect these issues. On the issue of ghost gear, we see that right now it's very reactive. It's about retrieving gear from the ocean and cleaning it up from our shorelines. We're not thinking about a closed-loop system and solutions that could work in tandem as we're cleaning up this gear.

You mentioned nature-based infrastructure. That's one way in which we can help protect our coasts and help our wharves from losing gear. A lot of the gear is there, close to the coastline, and it can be lost in severe weather events. We want to see the protection of our coasts. Green infrastructure works with the existing coastline and the existing environment so that it kind of absorbs that rather than bounce it back and cause more issues. We're working with nature to help us through these issues.

The issue of ghost gear in Atlantic Canada still needs more support. It's in its infancy in terms of knowing what is out there and knowing the hot spots. Our hope is to have more funding from DFO—long-term funding, year after year, not just small yearly or short-term contracts—for long-term, sustainable solutions so that we can work with the fishing industry and work with captains to help prevent this, help work on the recycling end of things, and work on the solutions that are not just reactive.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Smith. I'm thinking about the reduction of plastics as well, which of course is interconnected with ghost gear and all this. Thank you for your thoughts on that.

Perhaps I can ask the same question of you, Ms. Aylward, and ask for your thoughts on nature-based infrastructure.

As well, what communications have you been receiving from the government, from DFO, through this process, and perhaps any consultations on the rebuilding process and what that might look like? Has rebuilding with a more nature-based approach been a consideration in the funding allocation to rebuild?

[Molly Aylward]

We've been working in consultation with both levels of government here in P.E.I. With the federal government, we've met with the minister a couple of times since Fiona, and we also work closely with our provincial government.

We had a very significant ghost gear cleanup after the storm. I mentioned in my opening statement the fishermen who fish in Prince County. They were fishing actively at the time of the storm. When the season was over, 35 different volunteers spent three full days out grappling at the bottom of the ocean as well as at the surface. They brought in quite a substantial amount of gear. Some of that was lost because of the storm, obviously. Some of that had been ghost gear that was ghost fishing, something that we want to avoid at all costs.

We have been working with both levels of government, yes.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Aylward. My question is gone. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

The hammer is coming. That clews up our round of questioning for the witnesses this afternoon.

I, of course, want to thank Ms. Smith, Ms. Aylward, Mr. Watts and Mr. Jollimore for appearing and giving freely of their time today to share their knowledge with us.

We'll suspend for a moment while we switch to in camera for some instructions to our analysts.

Thank you, everyone.

[Proceedings continue in camera]