Fisheries Committee on Nov. 18th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 42 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022.

We will begin in public to hear testimony from witnesses. Following that, we will go in camera to discuss drafting instructions for the letter.

Before we proceed, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike and please mute your mike when you are not speaking.

Interpretation is available for those on Zoom. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. For those in the room.... There are no witnesses in the room. I know that everybody who is in the room knows how to use the interpretation.

Please address all comments through the chair.

Finally, I will remind you that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

Mr. Bragg, you can't take a picture and show it to your grandson.

The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on October 4, 2022, the committee is commencing its study on the impacts of the climate crisis.

I would like to welcome our first panel of witnesses.

Representing the Government of New Brunswick is the Honourable Margaret Johnson, minister, Department of Agriculture, Aquaculture and Fisheries. Representing the Government of Nova Scotia is the Honourable Steve Craig, minister, Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture. Representing the Government of Prince Edward Island is the Honourable Jamie Fox, minister, Department of Fisheries and Communities. Of course, from my home province of Newfoundland and Labrador, we are joined by the Honourable Derrick Bragg, now a proud grandfather, minister, Department of Fisheries, Forestry and Agriculture.

Welcome to all four of you. Thank you for taking the time to appear today. We have up to five minutes for each of you for your opening statements.

I invite Minister Johnson to go first, please, for five minutes or less.

You're muted.

There you go.

[Margaret Johnson, Minister, Department of Agriculture, Aquaculture and Fisheries, Government of New Brunswick]

Mr. Chair, that's the first time I've ever done that, as you can well imagine.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak here today. I'm thrilled to death to join my Atlantic counterparts and to speak to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

Climate change is already affecting New Brunswick. From our coastlines to our rivers, our agricultural land and our forests, climate change is impacting the health of our environment and the well-being of all New Brunswick.

When it comes to climate change action, the province has achieved a lot over the last five years, but we still have a lot to do. We need to build on our progress to date. New Brunswickers have told us that they want healthy and resilient communities, sustainable natural environments and clean growth in a low-carbon economy. Our province has had the resources and expertise needed to make this happen. New Brunswickers must continue working together to address the urgent challenges posed by climate change and successfully act upon the opportunities presented by decarbonization, while at the same time supporting the managed transition for our existing sectors.

Our New Brunswick climate change action plan, which was released last month, builds upon our progress and lays out the steps to ensure that our province has what it needs to thrive in a resilient low-carbon economy. We're going to continue to act on opportunities to achieve our greenhouse gas reduction target for 2030, which will put us on the path to being net zero by 2050. We will also continue to take action to address the impacts of climate change and build resiliency in our communities, businesses, infrastructure and natural resources.

During the past few years, New Brunswick has seen more and more severe weather events. Fiona and Dorian were both major storms that had a direct impact on fishery and aquaculture sectors. This includes major damage to wharves, fishing and aquaculture gear, and our fishing season. The fisheries sector remains an integral component of our provincial economies, which are the lifeblood of many rural and coastal communities. In 2021 the total export value for snow crab alone and lobster in Canada was approximately $1.4 billion and $3.2 billion respectively. You can see that it has a huge impact.

In this sector, fish harvesters and processors have opportunities to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and production costs through new technologies, energy efficiency measures, fuel switching and the adoption of beneficial management practices. These practices often achieve considerable co-benefits, such as improved biodiversity, ultimately supporting reduction in greenhouse gases and their emissions, and preparing for climate change. By implementing climate smart solutions that further reduce greenhouse gas emissions, New Brunswick fishery sectors will protect the land, water and air that the sectors depend on so largely for long-term sustainability.

It is imperative that we all speak with one voice when it comes to climate change issues. Collectively with our neighbouring provinces and the federal government, we can collaborate on actions and approaches that will mitigate impacts from future storm events. A working group has been struck between the four Atlantic provinces and their federal partners to discuss the impacts from hurricane Fiona, collaborate on approaches and problem-solving, and discuss a joint approach to future weather disasters. We appreciate the openness of everyone to share their thoughts and the wisdom that we can grow back stronger than ever before.

Within aquaculture, warming waters and infrastructure impacts in shellfish are concerns that we are closely monitoring and looking to mitigate or prepare for in the future. Our finfish aquaculture sector, through advancements in containment standards and fortifying structures, led to no concerns from hurricane Fiona. We're going to build on those successes as we continue to plan for the future.

I want to thank you for the opportunity to let me share the New Brunswick perspective on the climate crisis and the impact on the fisheries and ocean sector.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you. That's the first politician who ever went under time.

We'll now go to Minister Craig, please, for five minutes or less.

[Steve Craig, Minister, Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture, Government of Nova Scotia]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will be under time because Minister Johnson just took up half of what I was going to say.

My name is Steve Craig, and I thank you for the opportunity to be with you today.

I am the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture in Nova Scotia, and thank you for having us. It is a pleasure to join you today to discuss some of the impacts that the climate crisis is having on Nova Scotia and on our seafood sector.

In Nova Scotia, seafood is a multi-billion dollar industry, one that employs more than 12,000 people, many in rural communities. The seafood sector is, by its nature, a coastal business and that makes it even more vulnerable to the impacts of climate change, which is exactly what we saw with hurricane Fiona.

It has taken months to truly understand the impact of this storm on our fisheries and aquaculture infrastructure, on operations and on our coastlines. Fishing vessels stored on land were blown over. There was severe flooding in seafood processing and lobster holding facilities in this province. While most operators had generators, no one was prepared for the two- to three-week power outages. Operators ran out of fuel and couldn't get more, which put inventory of cold storage at risk.

On the aquaculture side there was damage, too, especially on our shellfish farms in northern Nova Scotia. Gear and product in the water were damaged or lost entirely, and the gear operators pulled ashore before the storm in many cases ended up washed to sea because of the storm surge unprecedented in events before.

Many of our processing plants are inches away from the shoreline. Our wharves, two-thirds of which are government-owned small craft harbours, are also susceptible to storm surges. Small craft harbours are already filled beyond capacity and we need more. As we speak today, six of them are not operational at all, and another 14 are operating at less than half of what they are supposed to be.

We are, though, thankful DFO and ACOA came to the table quickly with offers of support and commitments to repair the small craft harbours that are so crucial to our seafood sector and coastal communities.

The seafood sector is an incredibly complex seafood supply chain and we rely heavily on interprovincial trade to get our high-quality seafood to customers around the world. The transportation corridor between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick is a great example. We need commitment from the federal government to help protect the Chignecto Isthmus, which connects us to our New Brunswick neighbours and the rest of Canada and the world. It is our 401 here in Atlantic Canada.

With regard to the response plan, the other thing that became apparent in the aftermath of this storm is the need for flexibility and resources to respond to events like this, to be there with support for our fish harvesters, processors, aquaculture industries and coastal communities when they need us the most.

We know that climate change is also going to impact the wild species found in Nova Scotia's waters and the way our aquaculture industry cultivates product close to our shores. We're looking to our federal counterparts to make sure the resources are in place to collect the data needed to make informed, science-based decisions about resource management.

We're also looking to our federal partners when it comes to innovation in the seafood sector. We need to transition away from fossil fuels, and programs like the Atlantic fisheries fund and the clean technology adoption program are going to continue to be really important in moving this industry along.

I know we're here today to talk about climate change and hurricane preparedness, and our focus is to make sure that we are ready for that. Making our infrastructure strong, our industries prepared and governments that can respond quickly is one of our key goals. However, I don't want to lose sight of the human side of all of this. We are talking about people's livelihoods and we're also talking about their lives. Storms are unpredictable and that means sometimes fish harvesters or processors or sea farmers need to go out in that weather to pull their gear, to check on their vessels, and maybe even to turn on the generators. They are looking to us for help, they're looking to us for leadership and we can't do that alone. We need to work together, together with my colleagues on this panel today, together with industry and together with our partners in the federal government.

Those are my initial remarks.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Minister Fox for five minutes or less, please.

[Jamie Fox, Minister, Department of Fisheries and Communities, Government of Prince Edward Island]

Thanks, Ken.

I can tell you one thing; I'm very disappointed. They called me at 15 minutes after 12 this morning and told me my flight was cancelled.

Anyway, I'm going to get right into it. I'm throwing away the notes here.

Fiona devastated us in P.E.I. It's just as simple as that.

We have massive coastal erosion. We have huge tracts of land where the trees have just disappeared. With our increasing winds, as winter comes, some of these trees that weren't blown over continue to blow over. We've had to mobilize shore cleanup crews. I'm thinking right now of Hebrides, where actual buildings, houses and cottages were taken right across salt marshes into coastal areas. We have wharves that have been devastated.

The federal government announced $300 million over two years. My estimate to our harbours and wharves alone is $150 million, just to get the infrastructure back up to a usable condition for next year, and I don't think that's going to happen. I think we're going to have to work with DFO, with which we have a great relationship regionally, to have some harbours and some vessels relocated to neighbouring ports so that our fishing season will continue.

Fiona caused our shellfish harvest areas to be closed through CFIA regulations and how we work with them in terms of a safe product being delivered to the economy.

We lost holding of lobster. We lost holding of oysters and mussels. We have spat on the seed side that have been devastated. We're probably looking at least at a two- to three-year recovery on that. With that alone, our losses—probably uninsurable—are somewhere in the area of $75 million, give or take, plus or minus. That was a huge impact.

Right now we've contracted barges to come in. They're off our coast working to get gear out of the water, mussel gear, mussel socks and ropes. I will have to say that this is ghost gear, in retrospect, but we're having a hard time convincing some people that this is really ghost gear.

We're already talking about climate change, but I think we also have to talk about whale remediation. I can't take the chance of fishing gear floating off our coast and having a whale or some kind of mammal get tangled up in it.

The minister and I have been very.... Joyce and I have talked about this. She's very supportive of what I'm saying, but this type of action is going to happen more and more. We must make sure that we have the resources in place to adapt and to help our industries when this type of stuff comes.

I will talk about gaps. We have gaps in programs that have been rolled out. The federal government announced $300 million, which we appreciate, in recovery or help assistance across the Atlantic region; however, that is not going to cover what we're going to need across Atlantic Canada.

Right now I'm talking as the chair of Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and also Quebec. Aquaculture and fisheries to our region is one of the most important industries there is. Aquaculture and fisheries is the primary resource besides potatoes, our crop in agriculture, to our province. We must make sure that we have the supports in place for that.

Presently, with some of the programs that are available, P.E.I. is left out, because it does not cover companies that have over $200 million or over 20 employees. That's a great concern to us.

We are surveying right now. We're finding right now that, as I said, we have around $75 million in uninsurable losses across our total province when it comes to aquaculture and fisheries. I must put this in comparison to a farm. In the aquaculture industry or the fishing industry, we plant that stuff or we grow the species to a market. It's no different than corn in a field, potatoes in New Brunswick or bees. You just can't take these products out of the water, put them on a shelf and hold them until a storm goes by, the exact same way as corn in a field. You can't cover corn up. You have to deal with what happens when a storm hits.

The federal government, in conjunction with the provincial governments, must look at aquaculture and fisheries the same way they look at agriculture. In agriculture, we have programs available that help with crop loss. In the fisheries, we don't.

I've had this conversation with Minister Murray. Joyce and I have agreed that we need to look at this. Our department right now is looking at the AgriRecovery program to see if we can adapt it to the aquaculture and the fishery, which will be circulated to the Atlantic ministers, including Quebec. Then we will be presenting that to the federal government.

Climate change is real. I think it was a year and a half or two years ago that we came up with the Atlantic Canada plan. It was $750 million over five years. That was specifically to help our infrastructure, whether it be harbours or wharves, to make sure it supports a blue economy. I totally support a blue economy. I've been saying that if we do not have the infrastructure available that supports a blue economy and that is also prepared to deal with climate change and surges, we're not going to have a blue economy.

The federal government was very generous in the last budget. They gave us $300 million over two years, but that was divided over three coasts.

I am again sounding the alarm and saying that Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland are subject to climate change, in most cases more than other areas. We saw that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Minister Fox.

I have to cut you off. It's gone way over. I want to give Minister Bragg a chance to get a few words in. I'm sure he's biting at the bit.

When you are ready, Mr. Bragg, you have five minutes or less, please.

[Derrick Bragg, Minister, Department of Fisheries, Forestry and Agriculture, Government of Newfoundland and Labrador]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I may get a little off script as well, similar to Minister Fox. The past three Atlantic ministers have explained where they have been and we are in the same place. My notes are comparable to their notes, but I can make it pretty real.

We lost something we can't get back. We lost a life in the recent event that we had on the southwest coast of our province. We had another storm some years ago—Igor—and we lost another life. For material things, no doubt we can find a way to get them back. There are programs, there's insurance and there's help from the communities.

As you would know, Mr. Chair, I live right on the Atlantic Ocean. I'm on the northeast coast of Newfoundland. In the last 58 years, I can tell you I've seen the changes that are happening on the ocean. I've seen more severe storms and warmer temperatures. I can remember seasons when the ice floes would go well south of the island of Newfoundland and beyond that out to our rigs and on to the Grand Banks. Now, we don't see ice anymore. We don't see harbours and tickles freezing over anymore. These are all good indications of warmer water temperatures.

I've seen fishing stages that were built over a hundred years ago wash out into the ocean because of the extreme high tides, not only from this event, but from previous events.

This time we were devastated on the southeast coast. Right now, we've had to remove a hundred families from their own residences and take them out. They are in a dangerous.... Some homes, as everybody would have seen, were washed out into the ocean. The recovery and the cleanup from that is ongoing as we speak. We've had some great help. The armed forces were in for a while on the southwest coast. We've had companies come in cleaning. As Minister Fox would say about the ghost gear...because we lost fishing gear.

The infrastructure along our shorelines was built many decades ago. Some of the new infrastructure withstood it really well. What was built over the years did not withstand the forces of nature this time around.

We need to look at a new approach. We can't really build wharves any higher or any farther. We can't build them inland, obviously. We live on the ocean. We make our living from the ocean. Most Newfoundland coastal communities are dependent on the ocean and many lives have been given up to the ocean. But rarely has a life that's on the land been swept into the ocean from the storm. This time, that made it real. People were there. People were watching.

I could probably go on for an hour on this, Mr. Chair, as you know. It's very personal for you. This is your own province as well.

Climate change is real. We need to work with our municipal councils, our local service districts and with small craft harbours. We need to find a way to build better infrastructure if we have to exist near the ocean, which we have to do for many decades to come. We need to find a way that is more resilient and more ready.

For the municipalities, we have to look at a way of moving some houses back from the ocean. This was quite evident on the southwest coast. Everybody saw the pictures. I saw vehicles being washed away on videos. That's amazing when you're tens of feet away from the ocean and the sea has never reached there before.

I look forward to these proceedings. I am delighted to be part of this today. I have multiple notes in front of me, so I look forward to the session going forward.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to speak.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thanks, Derrick. You win the prize for leaving the most time on the clock. I appreciate that. It helps make up for ones where we didn't.

We'll now go to our first round of questions for six minutes or less.

We have Mr. Small, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm going to be splitting my time with Mr. Perkins.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming in today.

Mr. Craig, would you be able to give some kind of a report card on the response to Dorian and how successful the rebuilding effort has been? Just give us a look back at the track record to see what we're dealing with here as we work on rebuilding from this storm.

[Steve Craig]

Thank you, Mr. Small. You mentioned Dorian. Did you mean Dorian or did you mean Fiona?

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

It was the one that you had in 2019, hurricane Dorian. How has the response to hurricane Dorian been? I just want to go back and have a look at how well we did on that one, and that could be a guidance for repairs for Fiona.

[Steve Craig]

Admittedly, I don't have a lot of information on Dorian, being new to this ministry, though we have looked at what has happened in the past. Relatively speaking, one of the things that I've noticed in recovery is that although we moved quite quickly, I think.... DFO came out and surveyed basically the next day. The other ministers and I were texting back and forth immediately as the storm was hitting. We were talking with the parliamentary secretary, Mike Kelloway, as well about the response and how quickly we could get some of these things happening.

Maybe I can tie this into your question about Dorian, as it relates not only to Dorian, but Noel before that, and before that, hurricane Juan. We have a history of storms increasing in severity and approaching our coastlines, of which we have 13,000 kilometres. What struck me was that, in spite of the response that we had in this storm, there seemed to be no playbook, if you will, no off-the-shelf way that we could approach what was happening.

The work under way now seems to me to be in response, and I think the work has been quite responsive. As Minister Fox mentioned, the monies aren't as great as they need to be to cover off what has to happen.

We need the ability to have guidance around the prevention and the measures around the preparation and access to subject matter experts, and funding for the guidelines and distribution mechanisms. We just need an overall playbook in what happens next. We know that an event is coming, and the severity of those events is increasing. With the current one, Fiona, the barometric pressure was the lowest on record. With the storm surge, where people had put their gear on the shores where normally it would have been okay, it was washed away because the water came up so much. We need to take a very serious look at it and have a coordinated, planned approach before an event hits.

That might tie back into your question about Dorian. I can tell you that it's an observation of mine. I asked staff what happens next. There really wasn't an answer other than that people could look at their insurance; people can go through to the next level of funding. Then, of course, there's the ACOA and the $300 million, $100 million of which was designated for Atlantic Canada fisheries. It seemed to be happening sort of piecemeal, but it was happening quickly. So, the responsiveness, I think, was there.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, sir.

I will pass it over to Mr. Perkins now for a question.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'll try to make it quick. We only have a little over a minute left, so perhaps we can have quick answers.

Small craft harbour funding has been underfunded for decades. I'd like to hear quickly from the province that is perhaps the most affected, P.E.I., and the P.E.I. fisheries minister, in particular. Was there a difference in how small craft harbours that were repaired survived versus the ones that had maintenance deferred?

[Jamie Fox]

No. Red Head harbour, a prime example, which was completely redone within the last two years, was devastated. That harbour itself will have to be completely rebuilt.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

As far as the estimate of $100 million goes, my estimate is that the wharves alone are going to cost about half a billion dollars to repair, so the funding is nowhere near that.

Has any of the money to analyze, to do the engineering studies and to start the process of rebuilding come to your provinces yet?

[Jamie Fox]

None has that I've heard about or seen yet.

I'll just say something back there, Rick.

You mentioned $100 million. Within our department, we estimate it will take $150 million to repair just the harbours and wharves on Prince Edward Island and to get them ready for next season.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That doesn't include the other provinces.

[Jamie Fox]

No.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's why I think it's closer to half a billion dollars for Atlantic Canada. That doesn't even include the private wharves that were devolved. That's just small craft harbours.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway for six minutes or less.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Chair.

Ministers, thanks for coming today.

Minister Bragg, congratulations on becoming a granddad. That's great news.

Our study is meant to explore a few things including the impacts of climate change on these types of storms and how we can prepare our coastal infrastructure for future ones that are going to come.

The devastation of Fiona was real, and you've all spoken eloquently on the impacts to people, infrastructure and communities. I'm not a meteorologist, but I do read articles and reports indicating that Fiona's size was the result of warmer water temperatures. In the past, hurricanes would come from the gulf, hit the Atlantic Ocean, and the Atlantic Ocean would be cool enough to remove some of the impact and the energy from the devastating force.

Thank you again for sharing your observations and first-hand knowledge of the impact on Atlantic communities you represent. Also, I appreciate that you acknowledged in your testimony the fact that climate change is real and the climate crisis is here.

My question is for Minister Craig.

Minister Craig, what do you think we need to do to better prepare our coastal infrastructure in Nova Scotia, such as small craft harbours, for future storms that will inevitably come?

[Steve Craig]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway, for the question.

I think we need to do a number of things.

First of all, we need to take an inventory of our current infrastructure and, with our assets and investments, make them as good as possible to mitigate the damage of storm surges and wind.

Storms are becoming more frequent. They are becoming more severe. Two-thirds of our wharves are under the government and one-third are not. We need to look at all of these. We need to invest in the studies. We need to ensure we take the measures the engineering indicates. Maybe the engineering says it has to be three times what it is now. Well, let's build it five times, okay, because this is very unpredictable.

We also need to invest in what I call the state of good repair. We need to ensure we have something that is going to be well maintained.

We need to prepare our coastal infrastructure, use the science to make evidence-based decisions, determine where we are vulnerable, invest to adapt the impacts of the climate change, and then learn and apply what we are seeing.

One of the fishermen I talked with, as well as the fish plant owners, after Fiona said, “You know what, we're learning every time a storm hits us. We're taking some measures, but we don't know what's going to happen next and we do need government help.”

I would suggest to you, sir, that we do need some investment here. I know my colleagues and I are prepared to work hand in glove with the federal government to ensure this happens.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Minister Craig, I also want to take this moment to thank you for your leadership on the ground. You visited numerous coastal communities, numerous small craft harbours. In particular, I think of your visit and my visit to Osborne Burke's processing plant in Victoria County.

When we talk about small craft harbours—and, of course, we focus on those because they're the economic engines of our coastal communities. They're the heartbeat. I keep telling folks I know in central Canada that just as their car manufacturing plants are the heartbeat, and out in Alberta the natural resources are, the small craft harbours are the lifeblood of coastal communities. They're who we are, but they're also the economic engine.

When you think of an operation like Osborne Burke's, which was a processing plant that was completely devastated by the waves and the high tide and the winds, would the same solutions you put forward with respect to small craft harbours apply in terms of processing plants?