Fisheries Committee on Nov. 25th, 2022

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start my questions with Mr. Lansbergen.

I appreciate the little bit of a shift of the lens this afternoon with this second set of witnesses. I want to talk specifically about food security. There was some mention of downstream. It doesn't get more downstream than whoever's eating it.

Mr. Lansbergen, we did hear some testimony today about testing, and we know that it can be very dangerous to have product that hasn't been tested. That was in my mind when I was thinking about these questions.

On the food security front, are there some safeguards that should be recommended in light of what happens with climate change and the lack of maybe power generators for refrigeration?

What infrastructure is needed to protect the supply chain? We heard a little bit about roads and washouts.

On the safe consumption of goods, what are the kinds of things we can do to make sure that we plan for food security? We are relying on these goods for consumption.

[Paul Lansbergen]

Thank you for that.

Our products are in the cold supply chain, so they have to be refrigerated or frozen. For that cold storage, they need to have backup power to maintain the product. If it's frozen, then, yes, for a certain period of time they can be without power, but if it's fresh, live, then there's a much narrower bandwidth of thresholds that need to be met.

In terms of testing and things like that, the labs would need to have backup power so they wouldn't lose their capacity.

How often do we expect to lose power for a week in such vast areas? Maybe our expectations and backup plans need to change because of that.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you very much.

I want to revisit the mention you made of some missing pockets of engagement around the national adaptation strategy. I actually printed that out today to come to committee with, because it is important to have this wider conversation about what an investment needs to look like.

We haven't talked today about indigenous lands and indigenous communities. I'm wondering if there has been meaningful consultation with indigenous communities in relation to this national adaptation strategy that you saw within the report.

What are your thoughts about that?

[Paul Lansbergen]

From my vantage point, the level of engagement with the fishing sector as a whole, whether it be indigenous operators or non-indigenous operators, was left wanting.

I think that given the importance of oceans to Canada—we have the largest coastline in the world—we have significant commitments to managing our ocean ecosystem and fish resources, yet there wasn't that much attention to the strategy. Maybe it's too high-level.

DFO has certainly been working on it in terms of impacts we can expect in the decades to come for the ocean ecosystem and the impact on fish resources. We've already seen mammals and fish changing their migrating patterns and behaviour. That's going to continue.

How does that impact our management and licensing of the resource?

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I agree with you on it. It would be nice to see oceans planned separately.

The last question is just on employment insurance and loss of income. It was mentioned in some of the testimony today.

Do you have anything to share about how EI could potentially be there for workers in the fishery industry to protect them in the face of climate change?

[Paul Lansbergen]

I don't think we've really looked at using EI to help in this respect. I think you heard from the witnesses earlier this afternoon about how they're out of luck if they have not been able to work long enough to qualify. Then the question is whether you give them some sort of exemption because of the circumstance. I don't know. That's a broader question that I think government needs to have.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have one minute.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Okay, I'm going to ask our second witness, then.

You spoke of line extensions—the extension of your business and contracts with retailers.

My question is this: Are there discussions happening among business about how there will be business interruptions with climate change? Are plan Bs happening for something like a line extension? You mentioned a few of them today.

Are there conversations happening in industry that you can share with us?

[Dr. Richard Ablett]

Thank you for the question.

I feel that there's not enough attention addressed to the idea of the impacts of Fiona on downstream marketing. There's a lot of attention, obviously, paid to infrastructure rebuilding, but the entire value chain obviously consists of primary resources going through to products that go to the end consumer. Marketing positioning and trying to maintain brand and sales are obviously issues that are going to evolve with time as these climate change impacts increase.

In the particular case of our company, we're threatened right now. We may be able to manage our way through it, but definitely a lot more attention is needed in order to understand what's going on once you leave and get into the export market and mass retail situation and try to maintain your supply chain. There's no mercy with the mass retailer buyers when you can't supply them.

In the case of, let's say, the mussel industry or the oyster industry, it's two to four years to reinstate the biomass that can feed through to maintain these export products to the consumer.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I'm sorry. I'm just going to cut you off because I'm going to lose my time.

What came up earlier was maybe being able to do—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You time has gone way over. I'm sorry.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll go to Mr. Small now—while he's adjusting his tight button there on his jacket—for five minutes or less.

Don't be holding your breath so long.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I have several questions to ask, so I'll appreciate fairly quick responses.

Mr. Lansbergen, I've heard there's one master underwriter in the marine industry, which is Lloyd's of London. What happens if they deem that there's too much risk due to worsening storms and whatnot and they decide to pull away from the fishing industry?

[Paul Lansbergen]

It would certainly be a challenge. There are other resellers and insurance brokers that the companies use now, so not everything is entirely with Lloyd's of London, but it is certainly a big player.

Options that may or may not be that effective could be self-insurance and getting together as a group to provide insurance.

It's very complex. I know it has happened in other sectors, but with our sector being so diverse, that would be a huge challenge.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

The government is using climate change as an excuse to expand MPAs, and new maps are out in areas in Atlantic Canada, B.C. and the north. Are these new areas going to impact your members' ability to harvest?

[Paul Lansbergen]

Yes.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Paul Lansbergen]

Did you want a longer answer? You told me to keep them short.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

You can have a few seconds.

[Paul Lansbergen]

Yes, definitely: We have to go from 14% to 30% by 2030 in eight short years or seven short years. We ask for a lot of engagement with the sector throughout the process so that we know how we're going to be impacted and know what the conservation or the protection objective is, and the threats and the vulnerabilities, and so we know how maybe we can innovate and address those without having a closure, for example. Engagement would be part of the solution.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

We see the effects of climate change when it's right in front of our eyes. A warming ocean means shifting migration patterns among fish stocks.

What's your knowledge of the steps that DFO is taking, if any, in its science program to keep up with this shifting in the ecosystem?

[Paul Lansbergen]

That's a good question, and it's one that I've been preoccupied with in terms of adaptation.

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, DFO has been working with the FAO and allied jurisdictions to commission studies. The FAO has a thick tome of a study from I think 2018-2019 that was looking at climate impacts around the world and adaptation strategies. DFO has also looked closer to home for our coast.

The challenge will be when they start incorporating that into the stock assessments for individual fish stocks and how they communicate that to the fishers and harvesters that prosecute that fishery.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Would you say that what we saw in the closure of the mackerel fishery this year is an example of science not keeping up? What have you heard about the plentifulness of mackerel in Atlantic Canada?