Fisheries Committee on March 9th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 56 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022.

Before we proceed, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. There is interpretation for those on Zoom. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. Please address all comments through the chair. Taking screenshots or photos of your screen is not permitted. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

Finally, I remind everyone that the use of a House-approved headset is mandatory for remote participation in parliamentary proceedings. If a virtual participant is not wearing an appropriate headset, interpretation cannot be provided and therefore the person will not be able to participate in the committee proceedings.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I'm informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on January 18, 2022, the committee is commencing its study of the ecosystem impacts and the management of pinniped populations.

I would like to welcome our first panel of witnesses, from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. We have Jennifer Buie, acting director general, fisheries resource management; Mike Hammill, scientist emeritus, Quebec region; Bernard Vigneault, director general, ecosystem science directorate; Dr. Mansour, regional director, science, Newfoundland and Labrador region, by video conference; and Andrew Thomson, regional director, science, Pacific region, by video conference.

Thank you all for taking the time to appear today. You have five minutes for an opening statement and I believe Mr. Vigneault is going to provide that opening statement.

Go ahead whenever you're ready.

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault, Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. It's a pleasure to be joining you here in Ottawa on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people to discuss with you the work Fisheries and Oceans is conducting on pinnipeds.

My name is Bernard Vigneault. I'm the director general responsible for ecosystem science. I'm joined today by Jennifer Buie, acting director general for the national fisheries resource management program; and Andrew Thomson on the line, the regional director for the Pacific region, for science. Atef Mansour, regional director for science for the Newfoundland region is also on the line; and here with us is Mike Hammill, scientist emeritus, who recently retired as the lead seal scientist for the Quebec region.

The department has qualified, dedicated scientists across the country, and we are continuously improving our understanding of pinniped populations and their roles in marine ecosystems. Our pinniped researchers are widely recognized, both nationally and internationally, for their expertise and leadership in the use of innovative methods to study pinnipeds' ecology.

The department currently has ongoing pinniped science activity across Canada. These surveys and assessments are conducted for the purpose of understanding the abundance, population trends and distribution. We also lead ecological studies needed to provide a better understanding of the role of pinnipeds in the ecosystem, which includes their diet.

The department is aware of the concern from the commercial fish harvesters about the impact of seals and sea lions on the fishery, recognizing that there are many factors that could contribute to the decline or lack of recovery of fish stocks. To address these concerns, the department established the Atlantic seal science task team in 2019 to gather inputs on scientific activity and programs related to seals and their role in the ecosystem in Atlantic Canada and Quebec.

The task team provided a number of recommendations in May 2022, one of which resulted in the seal summit hosted by the department and held in St. John's, Newfoundland, in November 2022.

In light of recommendations from the task team for the department to enhance the collaborative efforts with stakeholders at the summit, the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard announced funding available for scientific proposals that will improve our understanding of the role of seals in the ecosystem. These proposals are currently being reviewed. Successful applicants will be notified in the near future.

Efforts will continue to be made to advance other task team recommendations. On the west coast DFO science continues to address the recommendations from two international workshops, held in 2019, to identify the research gaps with the University of British Columbia and the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife. Work is under way in a number of areas. There is a plan in place, in the coming year, to provide the first-ever assessment of harbour seals in Atlantic Canada and to survey Pacific harbour seals.

The department is also implementing new biological methods to study the geographic and temporal variability in the diets of pinnipeds. The department used satellite tagging to study the distribution and movement patterns and foraging behaviours of pinnipeds. The department also used animal-borne cameras to study the dietary and foraging behaviours of grey seals. In addition, the department is continuing to develop and test methods to incorporate mortality by predation from pinnipeds and other predators into the assessment of other prey species.

Scientific advice generated by these activities will continue to be used to inform the sustainable harvest of seals. The department recognizes the importance of a sustainable, humane, well-regulated harvest of seals, given that it supports Canada’s Indigenous, rural and coastal communities and is an important economic and cultural activity in Atlantic Canada, Quebec and the Arctic.

The Department bases its management decisions using the precautionary approach. This utilizes the best available information, including peer-reviewed science and Indigenous knowledge. The ongoing harvest of seals in Atlantic Canada is not intended to be used as a population control tool, but to manage seal populations sustainably.

There are currently no commercial fisheries for seals on the west coast. Any proposals for a potential commercial pinniped fishery are assessed under the New Emerging Fisheries Policy.

So to summarize, DFO is committed to managing the seal harvest using the best available information to ensure management decisions are founded in science and evidence-based. Fisheries and Oceans Canada has a robust science program and the department’s scientists are continuously improving our understanding of seal and sea lion populations and roles in marine ecosystems. The department will continue to advance its scientific research on seals and we will look at ways to further collaborate with stakeholders in science activities.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members for the opportunity to discuss pinnipeds with you.

My colleagues and I would be happy to take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you. That was right on the mark for five minutes.

We'll now go to our rounds of questioning.

We will start off with Mr. Small for six minutes or less.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for coming out today and being part of our important study.

My first question is for Mr. Vigneault.

There seems to be a huge discrepancy between the estimates of what seals consume done by Norwegian scientists and those done by Canadian scientists. Basically, the Norwegians estimate seals consume double what our scientists estimate.

What are your thoughts on that?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

There are several uncertainties, overall, in terms of estimating the consumption of prey by seals. This is one of many uncertainties associated with differences in season, time of sampling, specific age and relationship. We concur with the Norwegians in the overall scope. The seals are one of the key predators in the marine ecosystems, along with other groundfish, cetaceans and seabirds. The fundamental—

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Vigneault.

How much fish, in total tonnage, is consumed annually by the 10 million seals of all combined species in Atlantic Canada?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

I don't have an exact number for the tonnage, but it's a large number. It's in the order of tens of thousands of—

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Vigneault. We would take that in writing, once you get the information, if you don't mind.

Looking back at the Senate committee, Mr. Chair, Mr. Vigneault gave testimony that priority seal populations are surveyed every five years.

My question, again, is for Mr. Vigneault.

What's the current population of hooded seals?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

The hooded seal is one of the species we haven't been able to assess regularly.

We have an estimate from, if I recall correctly, more than five years ago. We are currently allocating resources to do the survey, including doing research work and using our recent harp seal survey as a source of data for hooded seals.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

It's been quite a while, going by the information I have here.

Do you think not having a survey of hooded seals—which are basically twice the size of harps and eat twice as much—since 2006 pays justice to conservation? Is that responsible practice, Mr. Vigneault?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

I agree that it's a significant gap in our knowledge. We are working on that.

To put things into context, there is very little harvesting of the hooded seal. Our estimate of the population is smaller than the major population of harp seals.

I agree with the member. The work is ongoing to address that gap.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Again to Mr. Vigneault, what's the current population of bearded seals?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

The bearded seal population is one for which there is no commercial harvest in the Atlantic. We don't have a full estimate of—

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

You have no idea.

What do you think the impacts of bearded seals are on the recovery of crab stocks off the Labrador coast, considering they eat mostly shellfish and are known to be big consumers of crab? Do you think it would be important to know how many bearded seals are out there?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

Again, that's a gap we will address through the years.

In terms of impacts on the health of crab stocks off the Labrador coast, the stock is healthy in that area. Again, the bearded seal is one of the other predators in the marine ecosystem we have to look at when we compare the predation.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

That's wonderful. Thank you for your response, sir.

Andrew Thomson, the euthanizing of nuisance seals was banned by the current government in 2020 because of the fear of sanctions over non-compliance with the Marine Mammal Protection Act in the U.S.A.

Why is this the case, when Norway removes nuisance seals with no fear of similar sanctions?

[Andrew Thomson, Regional Director, Science, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Chair, I would respectfully suggest that it might be a better question for the fisheries management representative, Jennifer Buie.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Okay.

[Jennifer Buie, Acting Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

I think that in terms of Norway versus Canada and our approach to nuisance seals, the MMPA certainly is a driver on why we had determined that we could no longer support the reduction of nuisance seals. I think there's concern about impacts to very important species that are exported to the U.S., such as lobster and crab. I think that's a policy decision that we took as a department in terms of nuisance seals.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small. You're a little bit over time, but not much.

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey for six minutes or less, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll direct my questions to Mr. Vigneault. He can direct them to whoever can begin.

Candidly, what do you know today and what does DFO know today that it didn't know 10 years ago as it relates to the east coast seal herd?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

I would ask Dr. Hammill to comment on that.

[Dr. Mike Hammill, Scientist Emeritus, Quebec Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

We know a fair amount. One of the things that we've improved our information on is diet. It's on movement through telemetry. It's through the assessments. We now have a time series of abundance estimates for the two main herds: the grey seals and the harp seals. We've moved a long way since the last decade and even the last two decades.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Mr. Chair, could you then focus Mr. Hammill on what he knows about diet?

[Dr. Mike Hammill]

My expertise is basically in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

The grey seals are consumers primarily of fish. They feed on capelin in the spring and cod in the summer, fall and winter. They feed on other species. You could find up to 30-plus species, but basically there are five mainstays.