Fisheries Committee on March 9th, 2023

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Buie, I'm just trying to follow the chain of what you were talking about before. You were talking about the rebuilding plans and, I believe—and correct me if I'm wrong—you were talking about how your job is not to reduce the numbers but to have healthy stocks.

Just following that thought, if, for example, you were looking at the numbers of cod or salmon needing to have a rebuilding plan, you mentioned that you looked at all the other factors. Let's say you found that pinnipeds were one of the factors influencing that decline. Would part of that plan include looking at, for example, a sustainable seal harvest?

You work alongside other levels of government as well and you know that livelihoods, communities and so on are all impacted by these decisions. I'm wondering if there's any work that happens alongside that of other departments when we're looking at a really holistic rebuilding plan and stock management.

[Jennifer Buie]

Yes, rebuilding plans are actually integrated into part of the Fisheries Act now. Since 2019, the fish stock provisions, as part of the Fisheries Act, require us to put in place a rebuilding plan when stocks fall below a certain reference point and they're in their critical zone.

For a stock like mackerel, for example, we are developing a rebuilding plan to ensure that the stock grows over time. We look at a number of factors to help regrow that stock. We work hand in hand with our science colleagues to look at those factors because, as I mentioned earlier, there's a very complex web in the ecosystem, so there could be a number of different elements that would go into that rebuilding plan. Of course, we also work with our stakeholders to ensure that they understand that we are rebuilding the stocks back up to healthy levels to ensure that we can have productive fisheries once again.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I'm out of time. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll now go to Mr. Bragdon for five minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Mr. Chair, I'll ask one question, then I'm yielding the rest of my time to Mr. Perkins and Mr. Arnold.

My question is for whoever feels best able to answer.

Has there been any meaningful consultation with the harvesters as to what they are seeing on the waters where they harvest fish, what they are witnessing and what they are experiencing? Has there been direct consultation and direct feedback from the harvesters who are most impacted by these types of decisions?

[Jennifer Buie]

We have an Atlantic seal advisory meeting annually. The purpose of that meeting is to get feedback from our stakeholders about what they're seeing on the water and to have an exchange of information.

I wasn't there, but the seal summit certainly also provided a forum with a diverse group of stakeholders to exchange information as well, so we are in constant communication with sealers across Atlantic Canada.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

I'm still a little baffled about this issue that as late as 2021, and in 2019, DFO was saying publicly that seals don't have an impact on northern cod.

Dr. Vigneault, you said basically that you don't think they have a major impact because there other predators, but I think that tens of millions of tonnes of food, of fish consumed, has an impact. In fact you're probably aware of the witness who is next, Dr. McAllister. In his peer-reviewed science that was released in 2018 on the collapse of the northern cod, he said that “grey seals are major predators of Atlantic cod”. They are the major reason why it's not recovering, even though it's only 15% of the diet of a grey seal.

How do you mesh the fact that independent scientists have been saying for years that this is a major factor preventing northern cod from recovering, yet DFO continues to maintain that it's not?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

Let me clarify that we have reached the same conclusion in our previous work. In the southern gulf, we have established that the grey seal has an impact on the recovery of groundfish. I think where there's confusion is for harp seal off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador and the impact on northern cod. Again, we're doing additional work to expand a number of samples as recommended by the seal science task team and so on.

Today, our conclusion is that the main factor limiting the growth of northern cod is the availability of their prey, capelin. It's not predation by seal.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I doubt that 7.6 million harp seals are eating Alberta beef and aren't impacting fish.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Arnold.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I'll go back to Mr. Thomson, if I could, on this question about this science report on the recovery potential of steelhead. Mr. Korman's recovery potential assessment said that reducing pinniped predation was the best way to support recovery of endangered steelhead populations. But after DFO folks got their hands on the science, the science advice report from the minister stated there's “no consensus” that the growing pinniped population in the Pacific was a factor in steelhead declines.

Why did DFO scrub those statements by Mr. Korman from the science advice provided to the minister?

[Andrew Thomson]

I wasn't there at the time, Mr. Arnold. I think, from the statements you're making, the advice provided by the minister was the consensus opinion through the CSAS process.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Or his science advice was ignored.... If predation is established as a factor for DFO's ecosystem-based fishery management, why do they insist on ignoring factors of pinniped predation on wild fish stocks?

[Andrew Thomson]

I don't think we're ignoring factors at all, Mr. Arnold. We have a rather robust research program to try to understand exactly the predation rates of pinnipeds on salmon. We're looking at the diets of salmon both through DNA technology and hard-part analysis of their scat samples to try to understand the species variation across the diets, but also where they are found geographically. Obviously there's a greater preponderance of salmon found in seal stomachs in the estuary than there is out in the non-estuarine areas of the marine environment. That's part of the ongoing research to help inform our management colleagues.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

What is the objective of the ministry to have that science information available to make science-informed decisions on pinniped management?

[Andrew Thomson]

We publish on a regular basis aerial surveys data for numbers of seals. There's a report coming out on the scat analysis in a relatively short period of time, and there's of course collaborations with other researchers, like in Washington state, on diet research as well. There's a fairly regular publication of data as the research has concluded.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Arnold.

We'll go to Mr. Hardie now for one question to finish out this first hour of our committee.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here.

I have a question for Mr. Thomson. This committee and our chair just tabled a report on DFO science. From what we heard today, this consensus model for landing on science advice to the minister has once again left gaps that really don't pass the sniff test.

If we were to ask Josh Korman to provide this committee with the material that was not included in the report, would he be permitted to give it to us?

[Andrew Thomson]

I think he would be. I don't have any way of controlling Mr. Korman, nor would I attempt to.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay. That's fair enough. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

I want to say thank you to our witnesses for appearing today. The department is always very co-operative with this committee, and officials are here when we need them. I'm sure we'll be calling you back before this study is over. We look forward to seeing you again soon.

We'll take a couple of moments to suspend, while we switch over to another set of witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call the meeting back to order.

I'll make a few comments for the benefit of the new witnesses.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute it when you are not speaking.

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Finally, as a reminder, the use of a House-approved headset is mandatory for all virtual participants in parliamentary proceedings.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. Appearing as an individual by video conference, we have Murdoch McAllister, associate professor at the University of British Columbia. Representing the Reconseal Inuksiuti, we have Ruben Komangapik, co-chief executive officer, and Yoanis Menge, co-chief executive officer.

Thank you for taking the time to appear today. You each have five minutes for an opening statement.

We'll go to Mr. McAllister first, please.

[Dr. Murdoch McAllister, Associate Professor, University of British Columbia, As an Individual]

Good afternoon. Thanks for inviting me as a witness.

I'd like to start with a study on B.C. harbour seals. They've increased about tenfold in abundance since the 1970s, and are at approximately 100,000 animals. Their dietary requirements are approximately two kilograms per day, leading to about 70,000 tonnes eaten per year. Diet studies show the consumption of numerous different fish species, including salmon and other valuable fish stocks, and the consumption of species at different life stages, let's say, including juveniles.

My research team has looked at predation rates on chinook and coho in southern B.C. Numerous of these stocks have collapsed to very low levels. Despite very low fishing rates since the early nineties, these stocks have not recovered or shown signs of recovery. Our study, which looked in detail at predation on juvenile chinook and coho salmon by harbour seals, indicates that those predation rates have increased about tenfold. They're up to about 40% of all juvenile chinook salmon entering salt water and about 60% of all juvenile coho salmon entering salt water. That's in southern B.C.

What are the population effects? We've done a meta-analysis of 20 different chinook salmon stocks, looking at the productivity. We found a significant negative association between stock productivity and local harbour seal abundance for 14 out of 20 of these chinook salmon stocks. With the increase in harbour seals, our study has shown that the sustainable harvest rates on average have dropped by about 44%. Sustainable yields have dropped, in association with harbour seal predation, by about 74% since the 1970s.

In another study, we investigated hypotheses about Steller's sea lion predation on sockeye salmon. This is the Fraser River sockeye salmon. There's been about a sixfold increase in abundance of Steller's sea lions, up to about 48,000 animals, at least up until 2017. That's species-wide. They eat on average about 18 kilograms of fish a day. This leads to about 300,000 tonnes eaten per year, more than the combined fisheries and aquaculture tonnage in B.C. per year.

We found that with the low-abundance sockeye salmon runs, harvest rates have dropped, and these stocks are continuing to decline. Our analysis of predation around the northern end of Vancouver Island by Steller's sea lions suggests that the predation rates are up about 60% per year, and they're highest in the years when the abundance of sockeye is lowest. Our study indicates that these low-abundance sockeye salmon stocks could be stuck in a predator pit caused by predation.

I'll move along to another study, which was just previously mentioned, on the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence cod and predation by Atlantic grey seals. This was an intensive modelling study, where we found that the predation rates on cod in this stock have increased perhaps tenfold since the 1970s. The stock, despite low fishing rates, has not recovered and is continuing to decline. Quite alarmingly, we see negative rates of production at the lowest stock sizes. Our modelling suggests that it is due to predation by grey seals, which are still feeding on a mixture of cod of this stock. Diet studies show that there's enough cod eaten in their diet to account for this continuing decline. It's so pronounced that it could potentially lead to extinction pockets.

In summary, on both coasts since the 1990s we've seen that numerous depleted fish stocks in Canada have not recovered. This is despite markedly reduced fishing rates. We've seen increased predation rates on numerous fish stocks, with up to tenfold increases in predation rates. In some cases, our studies show, those predation rates have exceeded natural productive capacity.

Our studies show that these increases in predation have reduced sustainable yields and sustainable harvest rates, and many of the low-abundance stocks could be trapped in predator pits, kept low by intensive predation rates by different pinniped populations.

I'll finish there. Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We'll now go to Mr. Lansbergen for five minutes.

[Paul Lansbergen, President, Fisheries Council of Canada]

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon, and thank you for the invitation to appear before you today. I apologize for not being there in person, but I had a prior commitment that has to be in person.

As many of you know, the Fisheries Council of Canada is the national association representing wild capture processors across the country, all of whom also harvest.

I wish to applaud the committee for undertaking such an important study. Canada has a robust fisheries management regulatory regime that is supposed to maintain sustainable commercial fisheries. Having the understanding of the interrelationship between fish stocks and seals needs to be an integral part of the process.

FCC is in general agreement with the science recommendations of the Atlantic seal science task team. In its report, the task team highlighted the data available on the food, feeding and migration of seals to be woefully lacking and, in some regions, not studied at all. Not having this information causes a serious issue when trying to develop management plans for fish stocks and the rebuilding plans for fish stocks listed in the cautious or critical zone. In particular, FCC supports recommendations 1 to 3 in the seal science task team report as they address the need for more science to fill in the gaps of the existing scientific body of knowledge.

I am pleased that the scope of this study includes both the east and west coasts. Most of the focus until now, including the task team, as per its terms of reference, has been only on Atlantic Canada. It is important to acknowledge and better understand the extent of the overpopulation of seals and sea lions and their subsequent impact on the marine ecosystem on all Canadian coasts. When you make recommendations to the government, I would urge you to be inclusive of all three of Canada’s coasts.

It is also important to note that it is not just the direct impact seals have on their prey species that needs to be studied but also the indirect impact they may have on the entirety of the marine food chain and ecosystem. An example of this would be the impact that seals and sea lions have on chinook salmon and, as a result, the impact on the southern resident killer whales.

While the need to gather more science on the impact of seals is greatly important, FCC stresses that it should not be at the expense of core fisheries science. We understand that DFO has a finite amount of resources; however, fisheries science and management are paramount to Canada's maintaining a sustainable resource. FCC is hopeful that the call for proposals announced at the end of the seal summit will fill some of the science gaps. Beyond that, DFO should consider external and in-house options over the longer-term science need, particularly so core fisheries science work is not undermined.

My last and perhaps most important comment relates to seafood markets. There are two aspects to this: market access as defined by government regulations in the destination jurisdiction and market acceptance, which is the private sector's willingness to buy our products. It is immensely important that, as the government considers potential steps moving forward, its actions do not disrupt either the market access or acceptance of Canadian fish and seafood products both internationally and domestically. I cannot stress this enough. This could have serious impacts on coastal communities that depend on our sector.

Foreign jurisdictions to which Canada exports have regulations that could impede our sector’s market access. Most notably, both the U.S. and the EU currently have near if not complete bans on importing seal products. They also have very strict rules regarding the harming of marine mammals that, if deemed violated, could limit or eliminate the market access of our fish and seafood products. For the U.S., NOAA is still reviewing Canada’s submissions for comparability findings for our fisheries under its Marine Mammal Protection Act. NOAA is scheduled to release its findings by the end of this year.

In terms of market acceptance, some importers and domestic buyers do not want to be linked with companies and/or countries associated with the sealing industry, so there must be extreme caution by the government to not jeopardize existing customers of Canadian seafood companies. We are working hard to improve the public trust of our sector and strengthen our market brand. These efforts could easily be undermined by government actions that are not well informed and communicated.

Thank you for your attention, and I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We'll now go to our witnesses in the room. I don't know if both of you are sharing the five minutes, or if one of you is doing the five-minute opening statement.

When you're ready, you can start.