Evidence of meeting #56 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was population.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
They are a significant predator of those species that the east coast fishery depends on. Would that be correct?
3:45 p.m.
Scientist Emeritus, Quebec Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes, they are, and we have shown that is the case.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Again, Mr. Chair, I go back to Mr. Vigneault.
In your opening statement, you talked about continuously improving our science to understand the role of pinnipeds on habitat species. Again, in appearing before this committee today—this initiative has been around for 20 years—what's your science telling you today that it was not telling you 10 years ago or 20?
3:45 p.m.
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes, the science has evolved. We have new tools that didn't exist 20 years ago in looking at the DNA and looking at the fatty acid analyses that help us have a very good measurement understanding of the prey relationship across the entire marine ecosystem. That has helped us to start documenting the key prey-predator relationships between the stocks.
We look at the entire marine ecosystem: yes, the seals and other pinnipeds, but also the other predators that are in the ocean. Dr. Hammill referred to the telemetry work. Now we have it with satellite tied in and so on. We have much more precise and a much greater amount of data available in the movement of seals and their distribution.
Also, the modelling we do to forecast the population abundance has evolved greatly. It's still evolving with the research. We're refining our understanding of these populations through the years of monitoring and research.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you.
Again, Mr. Chair, for Mr. Vigneault, because you referenced it in your answers to a number of questions, could you tell the committee why there is a gap in DFO's science as it relates to the east coast seal herd globally? There were questions that you could not answer about certain populations. Why does the department have gaps in its scientific modelling and scientific information as it relates to the east coast seal herd?
3:45 p.m.
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes, it's a question of evolving environment science and capacity as well. We focus our efforts—
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
What has your capacity been? What was your capacity in the past versus your capacity today?
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Over the last five years, for example, we have dedicated about $1 million to seal science annually—
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Is that $1 million to seal science new money that wasn't there before?
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
It's money that we allocate internally within the science budget—
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
But it's new money to seal science: Is that what you're telling me?
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
It's money from our ongoing budget for marine mammals, for example, that we allocate to seal studies. We focus on supporting the science advice for decisions on the seal harvest. We focus on supporting the science advice for the fish stocks as well—for example, when we develop the rebuilding plans for the stocks, looking at all the information that's available to be able to assist with what the role of predation is, among other causes of natural mortalities, in the forecast for the stocks.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you.
In my time left, could you provide to the committee—in writing, if you don't have it here—what trend lines you are seeing and what trend lines the department may be seeing that are disturbing or that are causing concern to the department relating to the viability of other fish stocks in the Atlantic region?
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes, we can provide that information. If I understood well, the question is—
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
It's about any trend lines your science is showing, or your data on any trend line that's alarming to the department as a potential impact on those fisheries on the east coast that are vital to the east coast fishery—lobster, crab, the rebuilding of the cod stocks in Newfoundland that hasn't occurred, and all those other fisheries that we know pinnipeds live on and that east coast fisheries depend on. We have not established a viable seal fishery that's sustainable and supportable using regular economics.
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
All our projections and estimates of natural mortality are in the public domain. We publish all our science assessments. In most cases, we don't have specific information on seals, except a few stocks in the southern gulf, where we have been able to establish a cause and effect relationship with the grey seal. In general, that is documented through our public science assessment of each stock in terms of what the future trend is and the probability of growth under different fishing scenarios. We always discuss and account for mortality, including predation, in our assessments.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.
We'll now go to Madame Desbiens.
The floor is yours for six minutes.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to the witnesses for being here to answer our questions. We are very grateful to them.
At the outset, I would like to say that about 25 years ago I went cod fishing on the St. Lawrence River with my father. All of a sudden, an announcement was made that sounded the death knell for the cod fishery: there was to be no more seal hunt. My father didn't miss a beat in telling me that seals were the primary predators of cod and that seals only ate the viscera. A few years later, my father told me cod was finished. He told me he was not going to see the cod disappear in the river in his lifetime, but that I was going to witness before very long. A few years later, I married a diver. He dove at Les Escoumins and he saw a lot of gutted and eviscerated cod carcasses at the bottom of the St. Lawrence. Obviously, we were told that it was the seals that were eating the cod viscera.
That was a pretty long time ago. Today, we are seeing an extreme decline in the resource, exactly as my father said. I am sure he was not the only one who foresaw the situation.
To what extent has scientific research done in the field been taken into account in the last 25 years? Is that research integral to your thinking and your actions?
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes, it is the very essence of stock assessments: they are based on work done in the field, inventories taken, and research done. In our stock assessment processes, we also invite fishers and people who are on the water to provide us with information and tell us what they have observed, to help us interpret the data collected.
Is there cod predation by seals? That is certainly the case. However, our work shows that in most cases, there are a lot of other factors that explain the weak re-establishment of cod populations. There are factors associated with food sources, such as the absence of capelin, their preferred prey. There are also factors associated with temperature. In other words, there are many factors other than just seals. We also notice that a number of other predators in the food chain in the marine environment have seen their populations grow at the same time as the seal population. So there is predation, but it is not necessarily exclusively by seals.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Yes, I imagine that seals are not the only factor. Thank you for reminding me of that detail.
There is another idea, about the work done in the field. Everyone can see that there is probably a huge amount of work to do, in terms of acceptance, before being able to restore the seal hunt in some fashion.
Do your budgets and activities provide for a team that works on restoring a degree of acceptance, a team that looks at the kinds of hunts that could be reactivated in a way that would be much more acceptable on the international scene?
3:55 p.m.
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes, in the sciences sector, we make sure we are doing all the studies and all the necessary stock assessments to show that it is a sustainable hunt and that it is an available resource.
We are also doing certain scientific studies so we can be confident of the humane aspect of the hunt. For example, we recently produced a scientific opinion about how to bleed the animals in a way that ensures animal welfare while preserving the quality of the meat.
Essentially, in science, we make sure that our research is documented, to show that the stocks have returned to their historic levels, that they are healthy, and that there can be a much larger harvest than there is at present.
I don't know whether my colleague Jennifer Buie might have some information to add.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Where are you in terms of international acceptance? Are there conclusive efforts?
3:55 p.m.
Acting Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
In terms of international acceptance, as Dr. Vigneault stated, we are always promoting the sustainability of our hunt, which is well regulated and humane. Of course, we have very strong marine mammal regulations that prescribe a three-step process to ensure that the seals are humanely harvested. These are examples of how we reach out to our international communities to say that this is a sustainable, well-regulated and humane hunt. It's through our actions, and it's also through our support of our sealing industry.
As was mentioned earlier, we had a seal summit in November, and coming out of that was an opportunity for us to have a very open and honest dialogue about the state of the seal fishery and about the innovation that the industry is promoting.
It's always an opportunity, when we have dialogue with our industry, to assess how we can facilitate that innovation and showcase seal products on the world stage. It's not really within the realm of my work as a fishery manager, but I think that our actions in the management of our fishery demonstrate that we have a well-managed harvest that produces excellent quality products.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
You're six minutes are up, Madam Desbiens.
We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses.
My first question is for Mr. Thomson because it's specific to the Pacific. The report that we received with some background information spoke specifically to the consumption of salmon by pinnipeds. It quoted some research that was done by Andrew Trites and David Rosen in 2019.
I can just quickly tell you what it says. It says that the causes for the decline in marine survival of chinook, coho salmon and steelhead trout populations in the Salish Sea are complex and may include bottom-up processes that drive prey availability, top-down processes, including increasing abundance of predators such as harbour seals that may be exacerbating mortality as well as a multitude of anthropogenic factors such as habitat loss, contaminants and hatchery management practices that may contribute to disease, reduced fish condition and ultimately increased mortality. The cumulative effects of these factors are unknown.
Mr. Thomson, is there any further understanding around this piece of information that we were provided with?