Fisheries Committee on March 9th, 2023

[Andrew Thomson]

It is certainly true that, in trying to understand the multitude of factors that affect Pacific salmon populations, it is a complex picture, and we know that there are multiple factors that positively influence the returning populations of Pacific salmon. Certainly, that's one reason we conduct the diet composition studies for pinniped populations, but it's also why we invest time and energy into pathogen studies, habitat studies, monitoring the returns throughout the north Pacific climate change study, etc. We have such diverse Pacific salmon research programs to try to understand the multiple factors that affect their survival.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I'm not sure, Mr. Thomson, if you're the best person to answer these questions, but how does the research and funding that's being allocated on the coast differ? What impacts do those differences have on the capacity to take on science in the Pacific, Atlantic and Arctic?

[Andrew Thomson]

I can certainly speak in terms of Pacific funding, and maybe my colleague, Dr. Vigneault, can speak to other funding. We have a very healthy research program within the fishery on the west coast. The research program for Pacific regions has approximately $100 million with about 540 researchers who are involved in all aspects of our scientific research program. It's a very significant program that allows us, thankfully, to investigate the myriad of factors, and the myriad of questions, that come to us to better understand our environment.

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

I would add that the resource assessment, including the funding and expertise, is allocated nationally. It's a team that works collectively. We have the benefit of collaborating with a number of other stakeholders to help us in our endeavour. For example, the Arctic work was a recent survey that we're analyzing right now for walruses. It was done in collaboration with the Inuit communities.

There are harvesters in the Atlantic who are providing samples for our study, as well. As I mentioned earlier, we are taking steps in addressing more data regarding poor species. We're going to do the first ever harp seals assessment. The data collection is now complete. We'll do the assessment and publication later this year. We also make full use of new technologies available to us to advance the work we're doing.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Building off the response that you just provided, Dr. Vigneault, I have a follow-up question. You just referenced an example around the collaboration with stakeholders and finding ways to build upon that. I was recently in Nunavut, and out on the waters with some indigenous local harvesters. They were talking about the importance of them being part of these decisions, and being part of providing vital information. They were talking about how when they're out on the water, they know, based on their relationship with the water, when they need to pull back, and when they can fish. They have a wealth of information and traditional knowledge to provide.

How are we working alongside indigenous harvesters, as well as all fish harvesters out on the water, and bridging that information throughout our process of deciding the science we're going to use in our decisions moving forward?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

Yes, there is ongoing collaboration, as I mentioned, especially in the Arctic. We collaborate for science and decision-making with the wildlife board. It helps us design the sampling, contributes to the analysis and then helps make a recommendation for the harvest decision.

Similarly, we invite indigenous traditional knowledge elders for collaboration when possible. Regarding the assessment, the Atlantic seal science test team recommended collaboration with harvesters and looking at opportunities in the collection of the sample, in addition to the analysis of the results of the stock assessment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Perkins, first, and he's going to share his time with Mr. Arnold. I will leave it up to him when he does that. I know the last time he did, he wasn't very sharing, but we'll try and keep an eye on him this time.

For five minutes or less, sir, when you're ready.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Dr. Vigneault and witnesses, thank you for coming here.

Dr. Vigneault, you'll recall that at the seal summit in Newfoundland in November I raised the issue of my order paper question on seal stomach content. At that time, you pledged to provide the details of what was in the stomachs, a response that was not provided by DFO.

Will you table with this committee, please, the information for the last 10 years that the department has?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

I'm not clear on the question. As I mentioned at the seal summit, the analysis is ongoing. What was provided for the parliamentary question was a list of ongoing analysis. We have taken measures to accelerate the pace of the—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm seeing here it goes back to 2017. You must have analyzed it since then and can provide us the details. I would ask that you table that.

I'll move on to my next question. Seals eat somewhere between 10 pounds and 30 pounds of food a day, on average. By DFO's number, there are roughly about 11 million seals in Atlantic Canada. That puts the consumption in the tens of millions of tonnes, roughly. We catch about 180,000 metric tonnes of finfish in the commercial fishery, so you'll agree the primary predator of finfish in the waters in Atlantic Canada is seals, not fishermen.

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

Mr. Chair, I agree that predation in general is very significant orders of magnitude compared to harvesting. As I mentioned earlier, there are many other predators. Some predators have more impact in terms of consumption, from our estimates.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

My question was about seals versus commercial fishermen.

You had mentioned at the seal summit, and the minister has mentioned recently, the revelation that seals eat fish. She did that in May last year. I'm curious because in 2021 DFO scientists publicly stated that grey seals have no effect on the cod population and again in 2019 they said the same thing.

So how is it that you have seal stomach contents, yet you say they don't have an impact and now you say they do?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

What we're saying is it's different to be consuming versus having a predictable effect on the growth of the population.

My colleague, Atef Mansour, could provide more information on these assessments.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm sorry, I'll have to go Mr. Arnold now.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you. If that information could be provided in writing, we'd appreciate it.

Thank you for being here.

Mr. Thomson, are you aware that DFO personnel intervened in the drafting of science advice to remove conclusions submitted by scientists for DFO's 2018 process that produced a report meant to provide advice to inform a ministerial opinion on the imminent threat to the survival of Chilcotin and Thompson steelhead?

[Andrew Thomson]

I'm sorry, I did not follow all that. I don't believe we have a process that removes advice, but we have a CSAS process that provides advice and I know that particular report is on our website.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

That process was apparently manipulated to exclude information. Why did DFO scrub the Korman statements from the science advice provided to the minister?

[Andrew Thomson]

I don't have knowledge as to what you're speaking of, Mr. Arnold.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

This has been in the news, in reports. I'm surprised that you are not aware of it.

[Andrew Thomson]

I'm aware of the issue, Mr. Arnold, but I'm not aware of the statements you're reading to me from your paper there.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

The steelhead report written by Messrs. Korman, Bison and Decker has been buried by DFO. Will you make it available so Canadians can read the science for themselves that was provided by Korman, Bison and Decker?

[Andrew Thomson]

The agreed-to science advisory board is on the website.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

No. Will you release the Korman, Bison and Decker science, not the report that was released on the website, the actual science that went into DFO to produce—

[Andrew Thomson]

As I understand it, the consensus on science advice is on the website.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

That information apparently is not. So the answer is you will not provide the information that was provided to that CSAS process?