Fisheries Committee on March 9th, 2023

[Andrew Thomson]

As I understand it, the scientific consensus report is available on our website.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

We're looking for the scientific evidence, not the scientific consensus report. Why isn't that being made available—

[Andrew Thomson]

The scientific consensus report is what's arrived at through the CSAS process.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Why aren't you releasing the science that actually was done—

[Andrew Thomson]

It is the science, Mr. Arnold.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I believe my time's up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes. Thanks, Mel.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for five minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For the last three years, right in front of my house on the edge of Caraquet Bay and Chaleur Bay, there have been hundreds or even thousands of seals every year, something we have never seen before.

I don't know whether this was clarified earlier, but do you think the seals are eating lobster and crab?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

Seals are opportunistic predators, so they eat a lot of other species. By our estimates, crab and lobster are not seals' main prey.

Again, there is a lot of uncertainty in this type of analysis. It must be noted that a number of other predators have seen their populations rise over the same period, including tuna and gannets.

If you would like more information, I can ask my colleague Mr. Hammill to provide it.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

When I read the mandate and role of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, I see that it has several components. One of them is that the department must work "with fishers, coastal and Indigenous communities to enable their continued prosperity from fish and seafood".

As was mentioned earlier, seals consume huge amounts of fish and all sorts of seafood.

What solution do you see for reducing the seal population? There was reference to a clearly defined fishery earlier. Ms. Buie, you said something.

You said something about defining a well-managed hunt. Can you define for us what a well-managed hunt is?

[Jennifer Buie]

A well-managed hunt is one that is first of all underpinned with science to ensure that it's sustainable and that we're keeping the population above a certain limit reference point, a healthy population of seals. A well-managed hunt is is done humanely. As I mentioned earlier, we have a three-step process to ensure that our seals are dispatched in a way that does not let them suffer.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

How does a well-managed hunt reduce the population of seals in Atlantic Canada?

[Jennifer Buie]

As a resource manager, our objective is to keep the seal population healthy. Our objective is not to reduce the seal population. Just like other fisheries where we try to keep our fish at very high and heavy levels, our objective for seals is to keep—

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You're saying that you want to keep the seal population in a healthy situation, but what about crab, lobster, mackerel and herring? What about those species? It seems like seals are one of the problems that these species are having some difficulty with, maybe not all of them but some of them. We want to keep the seal population healthy, but not the other resources. Is that what you're saying?

[Jennifer Buie]

What I'm saying is that, as a resource manager, we try to keep our stocks healthy. When they are not in a healthy state, if they're in a critical state, then we have rebuilding plans that prescribe the way we are going to rebuild those stocks to healthy levels.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

If your rebuilding plan of some of the stock is reducing some of the seal population...? For example, if seals are eating too much mackerel, can we reduce the seal population?

[Jennifer Buie]

Part of the rebuilding plan is working with science to develop the mechanisms to rebuild that stock, looking at all the interconnected web of the ecosystem and putting in place the measures required to rebuild that stock. I think that's looking at predation, fishing pressure and other environmental factors that might be impacting the stock. All of those are considered as part of the rebuilding plan.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I am very aware that it may have repercussions on our markets and that is certainly not what we want. However, if the seal population rises to the point of having an impact on our crab, lobster, mackerel and herring stocks, there won't be enough of them on the market.

I am just making observations. I am 47 years old. We have been talking about this issue for 25 years and we might say it is getting nowhere.

What are your solutions?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Cormier.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you. If there's an answer to that question, could you please provide it in writing?

We'll now go to Madam Desbiens for two and a half minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to let Mr. Vigneault answer Mr. Cormier's question. I was going to ask exactly the same question.

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

Thank you.

To be clear, I would say that this is where we see how important it is to have good scientific data and to clearly understand the specific impacts of predation on the management of commercial fish stocks.

We have no proof that seals have an effect on certain stocks in particular. For example, lobster stocks are in very good health. There is no problem in that regard.

A scientific assessment of mackerel stocks has just been done. Agin, we observed an increase in numerous other predators, including gannets. In rough numbers, we estimated that mackerel consumption by gannets is much higher than by seals.

If we focused our efforts on eliminating seals, there would probably be no major impact, because there are so many other predators, and this adds to the complexity of the environment.

It can't be guaranteed that just reducing the seal population would have a direct and significant impact on fish stocks in general.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

If I am summarizing correctly, other predators play an important role, and altogether it means that all of the resource in the sea is declining generally, except for lobster and crab.

You are saying that other predators have more effect on the resource than seals have.

There are all sorts of data circulating. We are kind of left to form our own opinion, today.

Would you be able to give us the proportions, based on your most recent measurements?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

Thank you for your question.

In some cases, we do have estimates. That said, there are a lot of uncertainties. These are rough estimates.

In the case of mackerel, the information is found in the stock assessments we are in the process of publishing. Similar studies have been done in Newfoundland and Labrador.

If I may, I would like to add that there is obviously predation, as we have discussed, but there are also a lot of other environmental factors that have a fundamental effect on the re-establishment of stocks, climate change, in particular, being among them.

In the Gulf of St. Lawrence, every year, we see warming and acidification of the water, conditions that limit the habitat for several species and have a direct impact on re-establishment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, please.