Fisheries Committee on March 30th, 2023

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Mr. Chair, do you want me to keep talking to see if—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

As the Speaker would say, “start from the top.”

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Okay.

I want to thank the witnesses for agreeing to share their expertise with the committee.

Speaking of expertise, I just want to say that I don't have as much of it as the colleague I'm replacing today, Caroline Desbiens. That being said, I am from the Gaspé Peninsula, a region where fishing is extremely important.

I believe the committee has heard testimony from some associations I'm very familiar with, like the Regroupement des pêcheurs professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie. The witnesses talked about the closure of certain fisheries, including the herring and mackerel fisheries. For them, the consequences have been significant.

I'm sure everyone here knows how the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard responded when she was asked about this issue. Instead of proposing a solution and offering the fish harvesters financial compensation, she suggested that they change jobs. Obviously, that's a whole other issue.

I did some reading on this subject, and I gather that there's a link between the pinniped population and fish stocks. Mr. Jones talked about the mackerel, cod, shrimp and crab fisheries. If I understand correctly, the closures in certain fisheries were related to pinniped overpopulation. Do I have that right? If so, can you tell us more about that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Who would you like to answer your question?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I would like to hear from Mr. Jones.

[Trevor Jones]

Thank you for the question.

The relationship between the decimation of all of our stocks.... It's not because we're overharvesting. We're harvesting at a lower level than we've ever harvested most species. The only relationship we can see is through the pinniped population. That has exploded, and our fish stocks went down. I don't see how anybody can argue with that.

We decided we needed to find something else to do. I'm a big mackerel fisher, and have been all my life. I'm an advocate that we should be harvesting mackerel right now, yet here we are in a moratorium. I don't know how to further apply our answer to the question, to be honest with you.

Just to see the massive amount of stock of seals in our ocean, and in our bays right now with all the young. The population is going to increase again this year and we're going to harvest somewhere around 35,000 or 40,000 maybe. That's what it seems like, a modest harvest, and we should be harvesting 400,000. It's gotta be decimating our stocks.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Jones. I think what you said was similar to what Mr. Woodford said earlier, namely that there have been enough studies and research over the years. You yourself are on the ground, or on the water, rather. You're witnessing what's going on, and you'd like the government to take action.

The Bloc Québécois held a fisheries round table on the right whale in December. Fish harvesters from various regions came to talk to us. It was very enlightening. That's where I found out that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans doesn't always consult fish harvesters, for fear of a conflict of interest. But the problem isn't a conflict of interest, it's more that fish harvesters and hunters are familiar with the reality on the ground and could help departmental officials understand what's happening and respond accordingly.

Do you think that's what's happening right now with pinnipeds? Do you think that not enough consultations are being done with the people on the ground, like you, the hunters, the fish harvesters and the associations?

My question is for all three witnesses. They can answer one by one.

[Ginny Boudreau]

Thank you for that question. It's near and dear to my heart.

I am 100% convinced that harvesters need to be consulted. In almost all cases, they have the answers, if they're asked and allowed to contribute. The issue with many of our stocks is that because of the lack of seal diet datasets, it is very difficult to access the existing ones and to get the Department of Fisheries and Oceans scientists and managers to include field predation on whatever species we're talking about. Only in 2023 did we actually get mackerel as part of the assessment of the predator. Gee, there's a revelation. Fishermen have been telling the department this for over 20 years, not just with regard to mackerel, but also cod, herring and halibut. It goes right down the line with the species. Therefore, it's imperative that we have input and that we get to contribute to what the predators are in the fishery.

That's not to say that fishing effort does not impact fishing stocks, but when we have a biomass and we have a model that's fed into it and we're the only ones who are fed into the model, then the output is going to come out wrong every time. Right now, we can afford a short amount of time to come up with a harvesting plan for pinnipeds. Very soon, and we may already be past it, we will be at a point where harvesting is not going to do it. We're going to have to start talking about cull. As harvesters, we don't want to have that conversation. We want to have the conversation of how can we harvest these. That's the solution from harvesters. We're at that time when the clock is ticking and we are getting to the point where these fish species can no longer absorb the predation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Michaud. We went a bit over.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses here today.

My first question is for Mr. Jones.

You spoke about the importance of full utilization in pinniped harvesting. Could you tell me a bit more about whether you currently have the infrastructure in place to successfully harvest in a manner that allows for the full utilization of a seal harvest? What's in place currently? What's needed? What government support would be required in order to ensure that such a harvest would be sustainable and, as you say, fully utilizing the entire pinniped?

[Trevor Jones]

That's a tall question. I'll try to do my best with it.

Over the last number of years, I have harvested older seals over the younger ones for the purpose of full utilization. We harvest the meat, some organs, the pelt and the fat. We've even brought in some daddlers with nails and that so they could use that or do some experimental work with that.

There's quite a bit of infrastructure in place when it comes to processing facilities—not just seal plants, but other plants that do fish products. We would certainly need an investment if you were going to do a large-scale full utilization of the animals. There's no doubt. If you're going to harvest 400,000, that's a huge number for full utilization, especially on the older seals. It would no doubt require quite a bit of infrastructure to help that along.

The first step would be markets. I believe the infrastructure would fall in place once we have the markets in place where we could move the products.

I don't know if that helps or if that's enough of an answer for you.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Yes, that's very helpful. Thank you.

It sounds like it's a continued conversation. I agree.

My next question for you, Mr. Jones, is about the market. I know you've spoken to it already in your testimony and in answers to other questions. You discussed the importance of governments working with other governments. Could you share a bit with us about the barriers that you see in your position and that you're hearing about from fish harvesters? Are there any barriers that you're seeing for us to be able to move forward? What do you think would be helpful to get these discussions moving at a quicker pace? What do you think you could do on your end?

What do we need to know in order to move forward in a constructive way? Perhaps that's a better question.

[Trevor Jones]

Perhaps a better relationship between the harvesters and the government.... We don't hear of any real conversations with other governments on this issue. Our friends to the south of us have a huge population of 300 million or so and a great market, yet they've had a ban on it for decades. Those conversations need to be had with top-level officials.

We need to make them realize just how huge an impact this overpopulation of pinnipeds is having on our fish resources, which the world needs and starving people need. We're going to need it, and we're going to continue to need it. My fellow harvesters and I need it now for a living, and the rest of our country needs it for good protein and whatnot.

We have to get down and have real conversations, but we're not hearing tell of any of that. We don't see any effort from our governments in that manner. If it's being done, we're not being told about it.

At least let us know where the government truly stands on it.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Jones.

What are your thoughts around the Canadian market, specifically?

[Trevor Jones]

I think there's been some promoting going on in the last year or so. At the seal summit I attended this fall, there were talks of some marketing that has been done. There's no doubt we could expand more. There are lots of people within this country who like seal or can acquire a taste for it and its product.

I think we're doing very well, but I believe we can do much better.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

My next question is for you, Ms. Boudreau. I'm wondering if you could build on this question. I know that in your testimony you were speaking about the importance of an international marketing plan around pinnipeds. Can you share a little bit more around how you foresee that working? What needs to be done for us to move forward in a more timely manner on this plan?

[Ginny Boudreau]

A good start would be to have our federal minister come out and publicly promote the seal industry in Canada for what it actually it is. In my presentation, I mentioned the meat, the oils, the pelts and even the fashion. It's a whole product. It's not a challenge to utilize the whole animal. It's a matter of Canada sticking up for this industry and saying that we're proud of this. This is part of our culture. This is part of our economy. This is part of who we are. It's not to say that we're barbarians and that we club baby seals. That's the perception out there, but our Canadian government has allowed that perception to be out there.

It would go so far if our minister would come out and say, “This is a viable, sustainable, humane industry.” Then, if we build it, they will come, if we put the investment into the infrastructure to grow these markets internationally and nationally. I think nationally it's very important that we do that foundation work first. If we don't have our own Canadian people promoting this and supporting this, then how can we expect to expand it into the international market? That goes for our politicians as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron. You've gone a good bit over, actually.

We'll go now to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less, please.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be splitting my time with Mr. Perkins.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing before the committee.

I want to start out with you, Mr. Woodford. You mentioned that a number of studies have been done over the years. Would you be able to provide to the committee a list of the studies that you're aware of so that those can be submitted as testimony for this study as well? If you could provide that in writing to the clerk, I think it would be very helpful.

Would you be able to provide that?

[Eldred Woodford]

I most certainly could, sir, but I would imagine that you probably got a list maybe a week or so ago from Mr. Bob Hardy. I think he made a presentation to your committee as well. He did a massive amount of work putting this all together. I'm assuming that he presented that to you. If not, then I can definitely get a copy of it and provide it to the committee.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you. We'll double-check that list, then.

Thank you very much. I have really limited time here.

Mr. Jones, could you describe what you and your network of colleagues see as the biggest impediments to growth in Canada's fisheries industry? That would be all types of fisheries—the regrowth of the cod harvest, the other fisheries that are potentially there, and even the seal fisheries, if you want to call it that.

What would you describe as the biggest impediments?

[Trevor Jones]

When it comes to the biggest impediment to growth, it appears that people are always blaming, as Ginny alluded to earlier, the harvesters and overfishing, but that's certainly not the case. We have the right environment. We have everything we need naturally. What people are not seeing is that the overpopulation of pinnipeds is eating away at our livelihood and eating away at our fish stocks.

For 2J harvesters in Labrador, one of the biggest impediments to the growth of their fish stocks and the struggles they're having is pinnipeds. That's where they spend most of their year until they.... You know, some come up in our bays, but that's where the biggest population of our herd of seals is for the bulk of the year.

If we want fish stocks to grow and rebound, we have to address this overpopulation.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Boudreau, at the seal summit last fall, the big announcement at the end of the day from the minister was that we needed to do more science to figure out what seals were eating.

Do we need to do more science?

[Ginny Boudreau]

I didn't think that was such a big announcement, but thank you for pointing that out.

Yes, we do need to do more seal science, but only in relation to the effects of these pinniped populations on the ecosystem and on that food web. What are these species eating? We know what they're eating. Harvesters know what they're eating. We see it. We're living it every day, but that has failed to get into the datasets that are presented by our species scientists and managers. That is the only area where I feel we need more science.