Fisheries Committee on April 17th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 61 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, of course, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022.

Before we proceed, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members alike.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For interpretation, those on Zoom have the choice at the bottom of their screen of floor, English or French. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. Please address all comments through the chair. Screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Finally, as a reminder to all, the use of a House-approved headset is mandatory for remote participation in parliamentary proceedings.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on January 18, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of the ecosystem impacts and the management of pinniped populations.

I would like to welcome our first panel of guests.

Representing the Fur Institute of Canada, seals and sealing networks, we have Mr. Chiasson, the executive director, and Madam Vaugeois, the program manager. Representing the Harbour Grace Shrimp Company, we have Mr. Steinar Engeset.

Thank you for taking the time to appear today. You will each have up to five minutes for an opening statement.

I will invite Mr. Engeset to begin, please, for five minutes or less.

[Steinar Engeset, President, Harbour Grace Shrimp Company Limited]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a pleasure for me to be here today.

Of course, being able to talk to Mr. Chair, by whom I am represented in Harbour Grace, is wonderful.

Saving the seals and, in turn, saving the fish stocks and helping support humankind is very important to me.

The reason I have become very interested in the seals is that they seem to be an exceptionally smart species. Recently, we have seen, on a video camera placed in the shrimp trawl cod end of the factory ships that we operate from Newfoundland into the Arctic, that a seal could dive down more than 500 metres and feed on fish that was being discarded from the Nordmore grates, which is a system we have to discard groundfish. The seal was waiting for fish to come through, and it would take it and feed on it.

It is indicated—and I can't confirm this as the real truth—that seals can stay down for maybe up to 30 minutes due to the oxygen capacity in their blood and body. This is a wonderful natural system that they have developed. How could any living animal dive down as far as that? A human being could never do anything like it. It is probably most likely just seals and whales that are capable of doing these things.

If we could use products created from the complete seal body, we could produce high-value products, and one of those products that is already produced is the long-chain seal oil. Second is something I have been involved in with other scientists from my home country of Norway—heme iron pills, which can help regarding people who have iron deficiencies.

Products of lower value could be food and various other things that can be developed through research and given to countries that need health food options. Of course, clothing has been produced over the years, and in China, for example, they are very good at producing something out of discards, including intestines. Further research on other potential products could be made so that 100% of the seal could be used.

The seals need from 1,200 to 1,500 kilograms of food per year to sustain themselves. Grey seals might need upwards of 3,000 kilograms. That means that there is a lot of food that the ocean has to give them. Based on the number of seals, if they are lacking food, they could end up starving and, in the end, from disease and from other causes due to their bad health, they could disappear.

Our economy of Atlantic Canada will suffer greatly if the fishing industries end up in trouble, as our economy today is also being supported by what we harvest from our oceans. Therefore, it is of utmost importance that proper research is done and a true picture is given on how we can save our oceans.

We are working with a scientist in Norway, Mr. Rune Ulvik, and he has been studying how the heme iron from the seals can be produced in pill form. In the laboratory he is working with, they are also checking whether there are any other heavy metals in the seals that could harm any of the products that could be developed, and how to get rid of the metals for a safe product.

For example, many millions of people around the world need to take iron for their health. Such iron is being produced chemically and the side effects are very painful and people have a hard time using it. The heme iron, for example, from seals has proven that it can be taken without any side effects, and it's very effective as it is from nature.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Engeset.

We've gone a little bit over time on the opening statements, but I believe all members have a copy. Hopefully anything you didn't get to say will come out in the round of questioning.

We have to move on now to the representatives from the Fur Institute of Canada. I don't know if Mr. Chiasson or Ms. Vaugeois wants to start.

Mr. Chiasson is going to give the opening statement.

Go ahead when you're ready, sir, for five minutes or less.

[Doug Chiasson, Executive Director, Seals and Sealing Network, Fur Institute of Canada]

Thank you very much.

Good morning, everyone. My name is Doug Chiasson and I'm the executive director of the Fur Institute of Canada. The Fur Institute was created by Canada's wildlife ministers in 1983, and we're the national voice for Canada's fur sector.

The institute is also home to the seals and sealing network, a coalition of sealing-related businesses, governments, indigenous organizations and harvester groups from coast to coast to coast.

I'm joined by my colleague, Romy Vaugeois, who is the program manager for the network.

I'd like to thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank all the members of the committee for inviting us here to share our perspective on this very important study. This study is important to me professionally but also personally as someone who grew up in a rural coastal community on the Gulf of St. Lawrence and on the banks of one of Canada's great Atlantic salmon rivers, the Margaree.

It's no secret that the Canadian seal harvest is currently in a much-reduced state from its heyday. From over 300,000 seals in 2004, in recent years Canadian sealers have harvested less than 30,000 seals each year. Pressure campaigns and weaponized legislatures, influenced by anti-sealing groups, have led to Canadian seal products being banned in previously important markets like the U.S.A., Russia and the European Union.

The seal business has changed significantly since international and Canadian offshore vessels plied Canadian ice and seas for seal skins to supply the fashion houses of Europe. The current offering from Canadian seal harvests is diverse and innovative. There are omega-3 oil supplements for health and athletic performance; gourmet meat preparations; high-end feed, treats and supplements for pets; and, of course, the warm, waterproof, visually striking seal skin garments and accessories we all know and love.

This full utilization not only shows respect to the animal we are taking, but maximizes value for seal harvesters and processors.

Over the last three years, the fur institute has led a national and international branding and marketing campaign for Canadian seal products. CanadianSealProducts.com is a one-stop shop for facts on the Canadian seal harvest and an online shopfront for products from producers across Canada.

Over the past 40 years, there has been much discussion about seal populations, which are increasing. As Fisheries and Oceans Canada moves toward ecosystem-based fisheries management, the role of seal predation is becoming increasingly important and must be considered. Ecosystem-based fisheries management cannot be left—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Excuse me, Mr. Chiasson. There's no translation taking place.

Can you start again where you started the French and we'll see if we're getting it now, please.

[Doug Chiasson]

Okay.

Over the past 40 years, there has been much discussion about seal populations, which are increasing. As Fisheries and Oceans Canada moves toward ecosystem-based fisheries management, the role of seal predation is becoming increasingly important and must be considered. Ecosystem-based fisheries management cannot be left as it is and climate change must be taken into account.

The simple reality is that the federal government must take action to reduce seal populations. DFO's “manage everything upward” approach is failing. Managing near-apex predator populations upward has led to increases in natural mortality throughout the food web, impeding the rebuilding of commercial stocks, damaging culturally and economically important species like salmon and driving at-risk fish populations toward extirpation.

The single most effective tool to control seal populations is a successful commercial harvest. The infrastructure, in both the concrete sense and the human sense, is there right now, but our window to complete this task is rapidly closing. As experienced sealers age out of the workforce, we run the risk of not being able to rise to the challenge of scaling up our harvest to the levels needed to ensure proper management.

What's needed to effect positive change is dedicated leadership at the political and officials level of the federal government. Ministers saying publicly what seals eat helps, but parliamentarians proudly wearing sealskin and instructing the diplomatic core to reduce barriers to entry for seal products into priority markets help a lot more.

For other sectors, investing a portion of their profits into opening a new market is a prudent investment that can lead to long-term growth, but given the restricted scale of the current seal sector, and the significant barriers to entry that we face, developing those markets will require government support. That government investment must be supported by the trade apparatus of the federal government, or it will be like buying a top-of-the-line fly fishing rod but not tying a fly on the end.

Finally, we must continue to bring discussions of sealing and seals outside of quiet corners. Creating an environment where the most significant concerns of fisheries groups, coastal communities, indigenous peoples and the sealing sector can be openly discussed will remove the taboo that has developed over recent decades. Last year's Seal Summit was an important step, but we need a comprehensive follow-up from that summit and to commit to another summit being held this year to continue to move forward together.

Thank you very much for your time. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We will now go to our first round of questions.

We will start off with Mr. Small, for six minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to witnesses for appearing in our very important study here.

I'm going to be sharing my time with Mr. Perkins toward the end of my time.

My question is for Mr. Chiasson. What's the number one impediment to harvesting the current quota of harp seals and hooded seals, in your opinion?

[Doug Chiasson]

Thank you very much for the question.

The current most significant impediment to harvesting seals is a lack of market access for those products to be sold internationally.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

In your capacity with the Fur Institute of Canada, can you tell us if there is a market in the U.S. for fur?

[Doug Chiasson]

There certainly is a market in the U.S. for fur. The U.S. is a big man on campus when it comes to economic activity. There will always be a market in the U.S. for fur.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I'm sure some people find that to be a little bit surprising.

If we could get access to that U.S. market, what would it mean to the harvesting of the current quotas that we have?

[Doug Chiasson]

I think that access to the U.S. market for any product is game-changing. Certainly, there's work to be done to sensitize American consumers to seal products for the benefits of seal products.

We hear from our members that they get contacted on a very regular basis by Americans who come across their website and would like to buy seal products, but then it has to be explained to them that, sorry, we legally cannot send you these products. We encourage you to get in touch with your congressperson, your governor or your senator to try to ensure that Canadian seal products can be available in the U.S.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Chiasson, which government departments could get involved, and what could they do to help us gain access and maybe make some changes under the Marine Mammal Protection Act to get in there?

[Doug Chiasson]

From where we sit, this would require a whole-of-government approach. Just letting this be a DFO problem, continuing to shove it off on DFO and letting it sit in the line department is not a path toward success. We need full engagement from DFO, from Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada and, particularly, from Global Affairs Canada, the diplomatic corps and the trade commissioners.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

You mentioned Global Affairs. What's been your experience? Has Global Affairs helped in any way, or has it been more of an impediment to the marketing of our seal products?

[Doug Chiasson]

I think that there are varying degrees of helpfulness from different levels of Global Affairs. That would be the simplest way to put it. Certainly, there are trade commissioners who are very helpful, and certainly the trade commissioner service in certain countries has been of great assistance. However, having trade in seal products be considered as a core government priority or a core priority of the trade service and a part of our broader diplomatic engagement is something that we have not seen in recent years.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Okay.

Let's look domestically here. Would an HST holiday on seal products or some kind of a tax credit help in selling more seal products in Canada? Just answer briefly.

[Doug Chiasson]

I think it would. However, our bigger issue, certainly, is getting people exposed to the product and taking the taboo out of the product, more so than making the product more affordable.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

I'll pass it over to Mr. Perkins.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay. I'll let Mr. Perkins continue for one minute and 50 seconds.

You're like Santa Claus today, Mr. Small, with your time.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thanks for the generosity.

Mr. Engeset, my question for you is this: What happens in the ocean when we commercially fish all the large amounts of pelagic fish and other species but do not fish the most prevalent predator, seals?

[Steinar Engeset]

What could happen is that the seals would eventually die. Some of the seals, the harp seals, I think, swim up to 15,000 kilometres a year, because they also go up into the Arctic near Greenland and down. To sustain themselves, they need this food. Of course, if there is no food, then they will succumb.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

At the time of the cod collapse 31 years ago, there were about 2.6 million harp seals in Newfoundland and a small number of grey seals in Nova Scotia. Today, we have somewhere around eight million harp seals around Newfoundland and somewhere around a half a million grey seals—so many grey seals now that I understand they're actually venturing up into Newfoundland. The department has said as recently as 2021 that they don't eat fish. Now I know the minister said it was a revelation that they do, but the department's supposed scientists said that they don't eat fish.

What's your view? Do they eat fish?

[Steinar Engeset]

Yes, they absolutely eat fish. In Nova Scotia on Scatarie Island, there are people who have seen them eating even lobsters, and those would probably be the grey seals. I have personally seen the grey seals on Sable Island. They are huge animals. The thing is that.... What I think is so important, Mr. Perkins, is that we show the world that we can help save people's lives. We are not destroying a species of seals if it can take part and we make sure there is plenty for it to be a long-term thing, so that we can help humankind. Otherwise, we will never be able to have it accepted internationally.