Fisheries Committee on April 17th, 2023

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

In this job I'm progressively getting older.

To both of you, in terms of the impacts it has, the benefits, we need to reframe this. We need to reframe it nationally, by the way, and I would even say regionally, nationally and internationally.

I'm looking to you to give us some ideas of what you're doing, but also how we can work together on reframing that from a national and international perspective, in particular with the Americans. If we do go offside in one form or another...and I don't think anybody here is saying we need a cull. I don't think anybody's saying that. I wouldn't want to put words in anyone's mouth here. We need to be careful. We need to be tactical and we need to be strategic. One false move could impact an entire fishery, or two, or three, or all of them. How can we work together on the education piece?

[Doug Chiasson]

Thank you for the question.

I think that, like you say, this is really around reframing the conversation. We have seen witnesses appear at this committee representing large fisheries organizations who I'm sure would not have accepted the invitation if this study had been held 10 years ago, because there was a time when it was impossible to have these conversations. The conversation itself was the kind of thing that might get the Americans' backs up.

Certainly, as somebody who grew up in a town with plenty of lobster and crab fishermen—my cousin is a crab fisherman—I don't want to see anything happen that will hurt market access for all Canadian fish and seafood products, but seal is a Canadian seafood product. We need to be a part of broader conversations that involve fish and seafood. Maybe we aren't the focal point of every conversation and certainly, looking towards the Americans, CBSA doesn't stop the grey seals from Sable Island at the border. Those grey seals are swimming into Maine waters, New Hampshire waters and Massachusetts waters. They are seeing impacts from predation by grey seals that come from Canada. There absolutely is a large constituency within the U.S. that would ask why they are blocking the Canadians from doing this.

There are the follow-on impacts in other markets that we see. We go and speak to other countries halfway around the world, and they say that they don't want to put themselves in a situation where the Americans might take a harder look at what we're doing and accidentally run afoul of what's now a 50-year-old piece of legislation—the MMPA—which is not particularly nuanced.

That's the unsolvable question, I would say, of the seal industry. How do we find a way to make the Americans, at the very least, clearly say what they take issue with and what they don't? The Americans do allow for the killing of seals and sea lions under the Marine Mammal Protection Act. They are doing it right now, funded by the state of Idaho and certain northwestern states. They're removing sea lions and seals that are predating on salmon and steelhead trout. How do we talk to the Americans and say that they're doing this much, so we're going to do this much, that this is what we're going to do, and we're going to manage our fishery the same way they're managing their fishery? For far too long, that has been a third rail. That conversation can never and will never be brought up with the Americans.

I think the relationship between Canada and the United States is strong enough that, at the very least, we can have an honest high-level conversation. We can't send some director general from DFO—no offence to the director generals at DFO—to Washington to have this conversation. This conversation needs to be had by the minister—and not only the Minister of Fisheries, but the Minister of International Trade and the Minister of Foreign Affairs—to impress upon the Americans the reality we're facing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.

We'll now go to Madam Desbiens for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chiasson, not long ago, the leader of the Bloc Québécois, Yves-François Blanchet, and I went to the Rendezvous loup-marin in the Îles-de-la-Madeleine. We were told a lot about the sort of reserve that exists in relation to anything that looks like a development, education or awareness initiative.

We were told that it may, therefore, be in our interest, in Quebec and in Canada, to develop museums. For example, Exploramer wants to set up a seal and seal hunting interpretation centre that would inform people of the seal's potential. This subject sometimes gets bad press. We could start by creating ambassadors internally, as there are skeptics even in our own backyard.

Do you think an initiative like Exploramer's could be expanded across Canada?

[Doug Chiasson]

Absolutely. I'll yield the floor to Ms. Vaugeois to talk more about industry ambassadors.

[Romy Vaugeois]

We're already doing that. We just finished the Canadian fish and seafood opportunities fund program, for which we received $2.94 million. We've been doing influencer campaigns with vignettes on seals and fur, both for indigenous and non-indigenous products. We did a lot of online advertising, because it was during the pandemic. It generated 68 million impressions. We focused on Quebec and Ontario because that's all the budget allowed.

Certainly, we can reach more people online compared with initiatives that target people passing through Gaspé, for example.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I don't know if you're familiar with the museum: it already provides training. It's a promising model, so it could be leveraged more or stimulated with more investment. The outfitters model is interesting, as well, since it educates people, gives them access to this hunt and demystifies it a bit.

Do you think this is an approach that could be developed further?

[Romy Vaugeois]

Yes. Anything related to advertising is so broad. It's about reaching as many people as possible and making sport hunting more accessible.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

This could consequently help develop enthusiasts, people who will really take a liking to it, as to ordinary hunting.

[Romy Vaugeois]

The heart of the market is Montreal and Toronto, whose populations are so far from the ocean. There is also a lot of work to be done in parallel to educate these people, as we said earlier. People who want to become hunters are already open to the idea of consuming the products.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

They need places like Exploramer and outfitters to give them more access, with people—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Desbiens. We've gone a little bit over.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two and half minutes or less please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I will continue on with my questions from before, Mr. Chiasson.

My question is around what you have rightfully brought up on the importance of having territories and provinces across Canada being involved in the Seal Summit and in this conversation. I'm wondering if you could provide your perspective on the importance of having region-specific plans in place on how to best move forward when it comes to pinniped harvesting.

[Doug Chiasson]

Certainly on the issues faced in different regions, even as simple as there are different species involved in different regions, we need to ensure that the management of these species is second to none. We certainly face enough issues with the international reception of our seal harvest. If we were no longer able to say this hunt is sustainable that would be difficult. Managing the bearded seal harvest in Nunavut would be very different from managing the sea lion harvest in British Columbia, and very different from managing the harp seal harvest on the Front in Newfoundland. We need certain national benchmarks for these things, but certainly we need to be able to also ensure that local realities are reflected.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

You also mentioned the Americans were removing seals and sea lions. Do you have any further information around that?

I think we can always learn from other countries, so if you can expand on that, it would be great.

[Doug Chiasson]

Absolutely.

There are a few ongoing projects for removal of seals and sea lions in particular localities in the United States where there are already impediments to salmon and steelhead migration. They're often around hydro dams. What they see quite often is that you'll get to a point where a lot of fish are holding at the bottom of a hydro dam and all of a sudden a sea lion shows up. That sea lion will set up shop in that vicinity for as long as they see fit. They will then go in and remove seals or sea lions that are within certain areas, particularly around hydro dams but there are other places.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Can I just clarify what you mean by remove?

[Doug Chiasson]

Lethally remove—they will kill them.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Do they use the entire seal?

[Doug Chiasson]

No. To my understanding, they do not use the seal at all.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

That concludes our first hour. I want to say a big thank you to Mr. Chiasson, Madam Vaugeois and Mr. Steinar Engeset, for their participation here today and the knowledge that they've shared with the committee.

We'll take a very short recess as we change out now to our second hour of testimony by witnesses and questions.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We're back.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the new witnesses.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For interpretation, for those on Zoom you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. For those in the room, of course, there aren't any of those at this particular time. All comments should be addressed through the chair.

Finally, I will remind you that the use of a House-approved headset is mandatory for all virtual participants in parliamentary proceedings.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses for our second hour.

We have Ms. Aaju Peter, lawyer. Representing the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation, we have—of course no stranger to me—Mr. Keith Hutchings, managing director and former member of the provincial legislature and a minister at times as well. Representing the House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador, we have Craig Pardy. He's a member, of course, as I just said, in the provincial legislature for the district of Bonavista.

Thank you for taking the time to appear today. You each have up to five minutes for an opening statement.

We'll go to Ms. Peter first, please, for five minutes or less.

[Aaju Peter, Lawyer, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to you today.

My name is Aaju Peter. I was born in Greenland. I went to school in Denmark. I have lived in Iqaluit, Nunavut, since 1981. My ancestors, the Inuit, are the founding people of the circumpolar Arctic, and we are the sole remaining hunting culture in North America.

For more than 5,000 years, sealing has been central to almost every aspect of Inuit life in the Arctic. Inuit hunters still follow the ancient practice of sharing their catch with their families and communities. Because the seal meat is not sold but shared, the hunters depend on their ability to sell the sealskins so that they can keep feeding their families and communities. However, the seal bans in 1983 and 2009 have caused undue hardship and increasing food insecurity in Arctic Canada.

With the EU seal ban, Inuit bear the administrative and financial burden of proving that the hunt and product meet EU criteria. The sale of seal products has not recovered from 2009, mainly due to public perception in Europe that all seal products are illegal and immoral. The role that various Canadian governments, over decades, have played in poorly contesting the growth of the animal rights corporations—based largely in the United States—has resulted in great hardship throughout Canada, but no more than in the Inuit communities. The Inuit communities have been affected gravely.

Food security and high cost of living are both impacted by the EU seal ban. The ban has reduced incomes and reduced local seal meat availability. Everywhere you look in our society, the EU seal ban has had a huge negative impact. As the price for sealskins dropped by 90%, the population of the various seal species has exploded in our waters—over 10 million plus in total—and will have a serious impact on the balance of nature in the ecosystem. An overpopulation is not a healthy population—on the contrary.

To add insult to injury, the WTO states that this ban is acceptable because it protects the morals of European citizens. What they're saying is that our legitimate right to live our culture negatively affects the morals of EU citizens. Their colonial mentality is evident in the so-called exemption for products from Inuit, an extension that exists only if Inuit can prove to them that our products meet their criteria of who is an Inuk, what traditional hunting is and a bunch of other patronizing rules and regulations.

Sadly, it has to be said that for decades, Canada, in its feeble attempts to deal with the sealing issue, has failed to recognize the unique identity of the Inuit community and how the EU bans impacted negatively on the Inuit to a far greater degree than other Canadian communities.

I applaud the fact that the government is tackling the issue of ocean ecosystem management, as it is urgently needed for all of our sakes. However, I would applaud much louder if the Government of Canada would actively and forcefully tackle the stigma placed on the Inuit by the EU and the WTO with the bans they have put in place, and how their rules and regulations are demeaning to our communities.

The dignity of the Inuit demands that the Government of Canada must seriously focus to end these bans that defame the Inuit communities and, for that matter, other Canadian communities.

Thank you for your time and attention.