Fisheries Committee on April 24th, 2023

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

In that case, do you believe that knowledge in the field would be an invaluable tool for changing regulations of this kind?

[Gil Thériault]

I absolutely believe that, because hunters who go out in the field realize that we have a lot of problems. They see that many regulations can be removed, they're totally artificial. That would allow for sound management of the grey seal in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. We're not at five minutes to midnight. It's more like 30 seconds to midnight.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Thériault.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madam Desbiens.

We'll now go on to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less.

[Gil Thériault]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here.

My questions, I think, predominantly for this round will be to my fellow British Columbians here today—thank you—from the Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia.

My first question is to either of you, whoever feels best suited to answer. I'm wondering if you could expand a little around how human activity has exacerbated the problem of pinniped predation.

[Martin Paish]

There are several ways we can look at it.

First off, the complete closure of the hunting of seals in the 1970s is what initially created the problem, but we also have other activities taking place.

I think, perhaps, one of the most significant ones that we notice would be the use of log booms. Log booms in the estuaries and bays around systems that produce salmon have created safe haulouts for seals and sea lions that haven't existed in the past and have enabled them to successfully avoid predators of their own, such as transient killer whales and things like that.

One only needs to travel down, for example, the mouth of the Fraser River to see the abundance of log booms and the abundance of seals and sea lions on them that can do this. Those are the two examples that I would provide in a short answer.

[Gil Thériault]

Thank you very much.

You mentioned in your opening statement, Mr. Bird, what's happening down south. I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit further around the methods and tactics you were discussing that were successfully implemented to address the issues. Perhaps you could expand on that a little bit further.

[Owen Bird]

I'd say, as a general comment, that Washington state, particularly, and Oregon as well, have observed, as I noted in one of the remarks.... They have noted the problem with quite a bit of care, and they've taken on tackling the issue already.

There are examples, particularly in the Columbia River, where they went to either trapping or just removing. I'm not sure about the exact details of the removals. However, the evidence has already indicated a significant increase in steelhead recovery and passage by those natural “pinch points”, so called. They've also taken on different ways and means to consider how to work around the mammal act in the U.S., which is similar to the one that is in place for Canada. As I say, they initially took on a project to talk about discouraging the animals, and that didn't work. Then they moved on to the next level. Now they're at trapping and removal.

There are a number of examples, as I've mentioned, but they've taken on some tactics that seem to show quite of bit of success in addressing the issue.

[Gil Thériault]

Thank you very much.

In your opening statement you also talked about your “fear and concern that if action is not taken, iconic species such as interior Fraser steelhead, a Province of B.C. study listed pinniped predation as a key source of juvenile mortality, may soon disappear.” Can you expand on that a little more and on what that study told us?

[Martin Paish]

Thank you for the question.

There are two times in a salmonid's life when they face pinniped predation, both times when they're concentrated. Salmon and steelhead are anadromous species, unlike more pelagic stock. They are forced, by their lifestyle, to migrate through pinch points.

One time is as an adult, when they're returning as adults. That's the more obvious source of predation, where we see seals and sea lions tossing salmon all over the place. It's quite a horrendous spectacle to see, actually, in some cases, or spectacular, depending on your point of view.

The other time, and where they are more concentrated, is as outbound juveniles. They have to leave the system in order to hit the ocean. Steelhead are interesting in that they're a stream-type salmonid. That means they actually spend one or two years in fresh water before they migrate out to the ocean. There are common themes in particularly the endangered and threatened Fraser stocks that the bulk of them are stream-type salmonids. That means that when they hit the ocean, they are typically in the range of 200 grams to 600 grams. The way it's been described to me is that it's the difference between a Smartie and an Oh Henry! in terms of chocolate bars.

For seals and sea lions, they will expend the least amount of energy to get the most amount of protein out of the deal. They will target these stream-type salmonids. Many people have looked at it. There have been studies on it. The theme with regard to stream-type salmonids being the threatened and endangered species, steelhead being the best example because of their incredibly endangered status, is that it's pointing toward pinniped predation as being the source of that problem.

[Gil Thériault]

Thank you very much. I'll try to get my last question in quickly. I have only 45 seconds left to go.

You talked about how ecosystem-based management that neglects to include pinnipeds in the approach does not lead to a rewilding of the B.C. coast or marine mammals. Of course, we had Dr. Trites at a former meeting speaking to the rewilding process of pinnipeds.

I'm wondering if you can expand on that and give your perspective on that.

[Owen Bird]

I'd be glad to do that.

Yes, I think the issue at hand here is that, in the 1970s, we took pinnipeds away from the ecosystem management approach. We're suffering the consequences of that now. To then look at this situation as we find it right now and explain that this is returning things to a wild environment seems to be sort of ignoring what occurred in the 1970s and that population.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for taking part today.

My first question is for you, Mr. Thériault. How do the high deductibles on sealing vessel insurance impact participation in the sealing industry by your harvesters?

[Gil Thériault]

I'm sorry. Can you rephrase “deductible”?

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Deductible is the amount that the harvester would have to pay, the base amount, on damage to their vessel if they had damage.

[Gil Thériault]

This is a good question. One of the damages from all the anti-sealing campaigns is that it's actually very hard for sealers to get insurance. The rate of insurance went really high. I know that in Newfoundland they mostly would hunt harp seals on the ice. That's tougher. It's a tougher hunt for those people. It's tough on all the material as well.

Here, with climate change and all, we barely have ice anymore in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Most of the time, the guys are going on the open sea. We have fewer problems, but the problem we have is finding companies who want to insure sealing activities. As we know, the big insurance companies are from either the States or the United Kingdom. It's getting to be really a big problem.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Thériault, how could the federal government step in here and help to solve this problem?

[Gil Thériault]

Definitely, if we could have support from the Government of Canada regarding insurance to make it affordable and possible for the vessels to go out to sea, then that would already be a huge step.

That's one of many steps the Government of Canada needs to take. That's certainly an important one.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

My question is for Ms. Carruthers.

In the recent mackerel advisory meetings in Halifax, data was provided that grey seals are consuming mackerel. These samples were taken in the wintertime. Their diet was 47% mackerel. We know that mackerel is under a moratorium. We know that, in the wintertime, mackerel is supposed to be in the Hudson basin east of New York.

What does that tell us, Ms. Carruthers?

[Dr. Erin Carruthers]

It tells us a couple of things. It tells us that we need updated data on mackerel, which is a separate issue entirely. It tells us that we need up-to-date data on where these species are. With mackerel in particular, we are hearing that—we're getting a lot of reports—there's a shift in distribution and abundance. That means that it's really important to have up-to-date data on where these species are.

The other one is that it is a very large removal of mackerel. Right now, the commercial fishery has been shut down. I wasn't at the AMAC meeting in Halifax, but I suspect, if it's that high of a proportion, then it's going to be more than the removal of a...even if a commercial fishery was open.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Again, Mr. Chair, this question is to Ms. Carruthers.

DFO understands that grey seals are having a significant predatory effect on the recovery of gulf cod. How do soon do we need to act, Ms. Carruthers, to save these populations of fish?

[Dr. Erin Carruthers]

Honestly, it's probably 10 to 15 years ago.

I know Newfoundland better than the southern gulf. When you look at the science reports and stock assessments, what you see is about a five- to 10- year delay. Throughout the stock assessments, you see the same language coming up when you're talking about the south coast, or 4R3Pn. That's Newfoundland west coast cod. You see the same types of reports coming from DFO that were in southern gulf cod 10 to 15 years ago. We're seeing the same thing happen again—or what looks to be somewhat close to the same thing happening again—on the south and west coasts.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

DFO has been holding seals in captivity in St. John's in Newfoundland and Labrador. Have you had any access to the dietary information that's coming out of those studies there with those harp seals?

[Dr. Erin Carruthers]

I think you're talking about the harp seals that are at the Ocean Sciences Centre there.