Fisheries Committee on April 24th, 2023

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's great to have this panel together. This study has been quite illuminating, and a lot of common themes have come up. There are some interesting contrasts and comparisons that I'll get to in a few seconds.

Dion, I want to go to you. You mentioned market access as an issue. We've seen over the last 20 years different governments trying different things. The Harper government tried to strengthen trade ties to China. That didn't necessarily work out too well. Recently our government announced the Indo-Pacific strategy to diversify Canada's trade across the Indo-Pacific.

I'm going to drill down a little bit here on market access. What would further trade opportunities across the Indo-Pacific mean for the seal industry? That's number one, and I want to go back to science for a second. We've had a lot of folks here at committee talk about science, with some folks saying that we have enough science, so I want to drill down a little bit with you on this.

What I'm hearing you say is that we need to do a gap analysis on science. I want to tie the science into market access. How can science help with market access?

[Dion Dakins]

Throughout Asia, even recently, we've tried to advance trade and open up new customers. We are presently in the world's most opportune time for selling omega-3s. The collapse of the fisheries in South America and the Chilean and Peruvian fisheries have created a global shortage. We've been inundated with requests about seal oil omega-3 going back to March.

The problem is that, in a lot of these countries, the decision-makers believe that harp seals are endangered. That's a real message that animal rights groups and other detractors have pushed forward. We need to be able to counter that. The only way we can counter it is with science. Do the gap analysis.

I don't understand. DFO could undertake that immediately. Talk to the Norwegians. Reconcile the differences in our understanding. That will provide the basis with which we will understand the problem. Then we'll understand the urgency to address that problem.

If the rest of the world wants to buy Canadian seafood, they're going to have to come to a reality that we have to do something with this apex predator, not only the harp seal but the grey seal in eastern, western and northern waters.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks. I want to stay with you on this if I can.

I'm not sure if it was in your testimony or in your last series of answers to questions. You spoke of an action team. When you look at this particular issue on seals, you see there are lots of themes that come up—the lack of access to market and the MMPA in the States. We are also hearing that there are other fishers in parts of the United States who are struggling with the same issues as our fishers are. This leads me to wish that we could travel and meet with some of these folks on the ground and on the water, to get their thoughts.

I want to go back to the action team. From a governmental perspective and working with NGOs, fishers, fishing associations and businesses like yours, if you're looking at an action team, who would be on that team?

It would seem to me that, obviously, DFO, Global Affairs, trade.... Who else would be on this action committee, and what are the two or three things that are low-hanging fruit? Maybe it's the gap analysis that we can look at, not in six years, not in one year, but in the next six months.

[Dion Dakins]

I think access to Global Affairs Canada is a critical step in all this. We need trade minds to look at the present constructs that exist. The Inuit and indigenous exemptions that exist have failed miserably. We should also have Environment Canada involved. We have Sable Island classified as a national park, and we have grey seals overrunning it.

We put together this strategy and submitted it to the federal government repeatedly over the last decade. I'll be happy to follow up with this committee following here. We've requested that we formulate a strategy, because we've been doing the same thing for 40 years. We've been talking about the seal hunt being sustainable. We've been talking about it being important to culture and tradition, and we've said that the products and the end uses are pragmatic. We have not gone so far as to position this as an ecosystem necessity. I believe that's where we presently are, Mr. Kelloway.

I really embrace an opportunity to sit down with some trade minds and let them know what happens in our business every day, where we see opportunity and why we can't access that opportunity. Let me make it very clear. It's not that there aren't enough people in this world who want seal products. It's our access to them that's the problem. We've had requests just recently for omega-3 seal oil for America. We get requests constantly from the EU, and we can't service them, because people don't understand the reality of the size of the problem we're dealing with.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Mr. Kelloway, you've gone over the time.

We will now go to Madam Desbiens for two and a half minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

That's very interesting.

I'm going to go back to forming an emergency action team, which would be a very good idea, in my opinion. Do you feel it would be feasible for animal advocacy groups to be part of the emergency team?

Hasn't there been any effort to re-establish contact with the extremist groups? When I say extremists, I'm not being negative; I'm talking about people who basically believe that humans are the bad guys destroying the planet. That's true, but we may be misunderstanding the pinniped situation.

Earlier you stated that the ecosystem was in danger. Animal rights groups and environmentalists generally defend ecosystems. Including them in a team like this could be a way to bring them back into decision-making. Do you feel that's feasible? I, for one, would love to see that happen.

[Dion Dakins]

I firmly believe that extremist groups that don't prescribe to the sustainable use of the planet's natural resources should not be included. They're a noise at the table. I believe that legitimate environmental groups have concern for this and want to see people being able to utilize their local natural resources, whether in Pangnirtung or in Twillingate, Newfoundland.

I think we need to come to the table together to solve a very large problem, one that has tramped on culture and tradition, one that has harmed the environment and one that is harming the seals themselves.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Clearly what the organizations represented by Mr. Schimnowski and Mr. Henheffer bring is relevant to the overall operation. I imagine that those kinds of organizations would also carry a lot of weight around this table.

What do you think?

[Tom Henheffer]

I didn't quite get the translation, but I'm assuming you're asking us to elaborate on the same question. In that case, the people who need to be at the table are the indigenous people and the Inuit who have traditionally hunted in this land as well. They actually understand a whole-of-ecosystem approach to managing those ecosystems and doing so effectively. There's a huge benefit to that. I consider myself an environmentalist, but I certainly believe that the seals and the lack of a seal hunt are destroying the ecosystem in this region.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Desbiens.

I want to give Ms. Barron a chance to ask some other questions before we close out the first hour.

[Gil Thériault]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you again to our witnesses.

I wanted to provide an opportunity for our witnesses from the Arctic Research Foundation, who wanted to provide some information, to fill in some of those gaps. If you could, elaborate more on what the number one step is that you think the government needs to take—the first step—moving forward.

As a side note, I visited Pangnirtung, which is an amazing community up in Nunavut, just last summer. I got to see first-hand the cultural importance of seal hunting for Nunavummiut. It was just incredible.

Share anything you can around that to fill in information. Thank you.

[Tom Henheffer]

The number one thing, generally, is that there needs to be more funding for northern science. There needs to be more money going out the door and flowing through communities where they can direct it. It doesn't have to come to organizations like ours, but it needs to go to the communities so they can decide what to do with it.

In terms of seals, conduct meaningful stock assessments in the regions, especially in the Arctic, where we don't know what the health of 18 of the 21 species is like. That needs to be done.

The third thing is to take this ecosystems approach. To give you a quick example, science is expensive, but it could be done much more cheaply if you weren't doing it from a huge icebreaker. You could actually access these uncharted nearshore regions where the work really needs to be done and where it has been neglected for decades.

On a single project on our ship, there could be hydrography—mapping for infrastructure and for navigation—while doing a bioacoustic stock assessment and trawling nets to find out about microplastics contamination, which is another serious issue. We could stop to do permafrost core samples and ongoing water nutrient analysis. At the same time, we could be training crew from local communities in Transport Canada certifications to get their bridge watch rating so they can then get good marine jobs. We could also host youth camps to engage youth from the communities in local science.

This is the model we do. This is what we scrape together funding to do. There's no reason the federal government can't do that. It does cross a bunch of programs and a bunch of departments, which is unusual, but that's what needs to happen for science funding in the north.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

That concludes our first hour of business.

I certainly want to thank our witnesses, Mr. Henheffer, Mr. Schimnowski and Mr. Dakins, for coming today and sharing their most valuable knowledge with the committee on this particular topic. We were delighted to hear the testimony today. It was actually very informative.

We'll suspend for a moment to switch out to our second hour.

Again, thank you very much for participating.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I would like to welcome our witnesses for the second panel of our committee meeting today.

Representing the Fish, Food and Allied Workers union, we have Dr. Erin Carruthers, fisheries scientist, by video conference. Representing the Intra-Quebec Sealers Association, we have Gil Thériault, director, by video conference. Representing the Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia, we have, in person, Mr. Owen Bird, executive director, and Martin Paish, director, sustainable fisheries.

Thank you for taking the time to appear today. Each group will have up to five minutes for an opening statement.

We'll start with Dr. Carruthers, please.

[Dr. Erin Carruthers, Fisheries Scientist, Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union]

Thank you, Chair.

On behalf of the 13,000 Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union members in Newfoundland and Labrador, thank you for the opportunity for our union to address the members today with respect to your study on ecosystem impacts and management of pinniped populations.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with the FFAW, the FFAW represents fish harvesters all around the island of Newfoundland and in southern Labrador. Our membership encompasses approximately 3,000 owner-operator enterprises and their more than 7,000 crew members. Our membership also includes thousands of workers in fish processing plants, marine transportation, metal fabrication, hospitality and more sectors across the province.

As the union representing fish harvesters and processing workers, FFAW is an advocate for economic and social growth and the sustainability of coastal communities throughout the province. Those coastal communities, vibrant coastal communities, depend on sustainable and healthy fisheries and fish stocks. That's what I will talk about a bit today.

That's an overview of the union broadly, but I also want to talk about our science department. Some folks may not know that the FFAW has a science department. Our science department began with our cod sentinel program in 1994. One of the goals of the sentinel program, and it's been one of our main goals since then, has been to bring harvesters and their observations and knowledge to the assessment and management table so that they are part of the management of fished ecosystems and fisheries. We have programs on every commercially fished stock in Newfoundland and Labrador, plus many other programs. In all of the programs we do, harvesters bring their observations, knowledge and fishing expertise to the table and to the projects.

Before I get into my comments—this relates to my comments on seals—documenting harvesters' observations and knowledge remains an important priority for FFAW. I note here that, as part of your study, this committee has heard from harvesters and sealers in Newfoundland and Labrador and other regions. Included in that are some long-time harvesters I know well, Mr. Trevor Jones and Mr. Eldred Woodford, who reported on their observations and knowledge of changes in their fish environments. Specifically, I expect that they would have talked about changes in the abundance, distribution and impacts of seal populations in Newfoundland and Labrador.

As you've probably heard, because we certainly have, FFAW has repeatedly highlighted harvesters' frustration regarding the lack of commitment to understanding the impact of seal predation on important species like capelin, Atlantic cod, mackerel, herring, crab and the list goes on. In addition to logged reports of massive seal herds, harvesters have also presented, often directly to DFO, photos and videos of seal depredation. For years our membership has been calling for DFO to collect information on the current distribution and abundance of populations around Newfoundland and Labrador that are impacting our fishery species.

I think it's more than just calling on DFO to document. It's also calling on DFO to prioritize collaborative research on seal impacts, research that builds on the observations and knowledge of people on the water. As I'm sure you know by this point in your study, there has been a huge gap between harvesters' observations and DFO's assessments of ecosystem impacts from seals. I'm going to walk you through one specific example that I was a part of and just use it to illustrate some of the points I wanted to talk about. This example comes from a 3Ps cod assessment and rebuilding plan processes. Then I'll recommend potential ways to bridge that huge gap that we have between harvesters' and DFO scientists' assessments of impacts.

First, 3Ps cod is one of three cod stocks in Newfoundland and Labrador. It is the stock that is located on the south coast of the island of Newfoundland. It goes from Placentia Bay in the east to Burgeo in the west. Currently, 3Ps cod is assessed as being in the critical zone, which means that we must put a rebuilding plan in place. Like cod stocks in the southern gulf, the assessment for 3Ps cod shows that fishing levels are not driving the trajectory of the stock. In fact, model outputs show that natural mortality is estimated to be 10 times that of fishing mortality—10 times.

The most recent stock assessment that is available online states, “Only a very small proportion of the Grey Seal...population...utilizes Subdiv. 3Ps”. It then cites a tagging review that was published five years ago. However, that review, and, importantly, the satellite tagging data the review is based on, is at least 13 to 15 years old.

We're making a statement about what's happening on our south coast right now, and we're trying to build a plan for how to rebuild a really important cod stock, and we're using data that's 15 years old. We're saying there is a very small population on the south coast. This is why people are frustrated. This is an example of why people are frustrated, and how big that gap can be.

To be fair, I brought this up at the rebuilding plan working group, which is a small task group of DFO scientists and managers, industry and indigenous groups. When I highlighted the problem of using historical data to infer current status, because you cannot infer current status and current impacts from data that is 15 years old—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Dr. Carruthers, we're going to have to cut it off there because we've gone over the five-minute mark. Anything you didn't get to say will hopefully come out in the questions.

We'll now go to Mr. Thériault for five minutes or less, please.

[Gil Thériault, Director, Intra-Quebec Sealers Association]

Good afternoon, everyone.

Thank you for inviting me to take part in your work.

My name is Gil Thériault and I am director of the Intra-Quebec Sealers Association. I first became involved in this in 1992, which gives me some hindsight and a long-term view of the seal issue. I didn't prepare a big speech. I listened to the presentations made earlier, and several things caught my attention. I'll try to name a few of them in the few minutes of speaking time I have left.

First, it's important to know that we don't have a seal industry in Canada, we have seal industries. Certainly the Indigenous peoples have theirs, as do Quebec, the Maritimes and Newfoundland and Labrador. We have at least four zones with their own realities and challenges. So it's very important that we take that into account when discussing this issue.

One of the big problems is that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans won't admit that we may have too many seals. I don't know how many times I've been in meetings with scientists from the department. They said it wasn't true, that we didn't have too many seals, much like we didn't have too many lobsters. Those scientists use a species-by-species approach. The important thing for them is that we have more and more. However, it is possible to have too many geese, too many foxes, too many moose and too many deer, for example, in any given ecosystem. Earlier, we were wondering if the department was possibly minimizing this issue. In my opinion, it definitely is. The species-by-species approach to the precautionary principle is a thing of the past. It's as backward-looking as the anthropocentric approach. Today, we absolutely must get behind the ecosystem approach, and there seems to be quite a bit of resistance to that in the department.

Right now, with respect to the Gulf of St. Lawrence, I've heard that four species of fish were endangered, which is absolutely not true. That was the case several years ago, but many more than that are endangered now. Atlantic cod, American plaice, witch flounder, yellowtail, white hake, winter skate, mackerel and herring. In a few years, even more will be endangered species.

The magnitude of the problem, as far as the grey seal here in the Gulf of St. Lawrence goes, is enormous. We're already in the middle of a crisis, and we've already waited far too long. I can talk to you later about the issue of seal bait, for example. The situation there reflects the department's total lack of will to address this issue.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We'll now go to Mr. Bird or Mr. Paish. I don't know if you're sharing your time, or if one of you is making an opening statement.

You have five minutes or less, please.

[Owen Bird, Executive Director, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia]

Thank you. I will do that.

I just note that I was targeting six minutes. I understand that the statement has been distributed ahead of time. I'll do my very best, but I'm aware of the time.

The Sport Fishing Institute of B.C. is an advocacy organization, established in 1980, representing the interests of recreational anglers, the businesses that support sport fishing and related activities, and the communities that depend upon it. Salmonids are a keystone species for our fishery. Based on studies and findings in B.C., Washington and Oregon, as well as shared experience and knowledge of coastal anglers and residents, there is no doubt that the future of salmon and steelhead production, and therefore salmon and steelhead fisheries, is threatened by the current levels of pinniped predation.

Pinniped predation on salmon and steelhead in B.C. has been a serious issue for decades. Now pinniped predation is known to have a greater impact on salmon and steelhead production than all other fisheries and harvest combined. From a study published in the Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences regarding marine mammal predator consumption of chinook in Washington state inland waters, the following demonstrates the significance of the issues in waters adjacent to B.C.:

Between 1970 and 2015, we estimate that the annual biomass of Chinook salmon consumed by pinnipeds had increased from 68 to 625 metric tons. Converting juvenile Chinook salmon into adult equivalents, we found that by 2015, pinnipeds consumed double that of resident killer whales and six times greater than the combined commercial and recreational catches.

While pinniped populations appear to have stabilized, the current numbers are 10 times what they were. The range and habits of the inflated population have oriented to areas and times that are frequented by juvenile and adult salmon. The relationship between the pinniped population and decreasing salmonid abundance is increasingly documented and obvious. The future for salmon is bleak unless something is done soon to reverse the trend.

Ecosystem-based management that neglects to include pinnipeds in the approach does not lead to rewilding of the B.C. coast or marine mammals but has systematically created and exacerbated an imbalance in the marine environment. In its natural state, during the millennia prior to European contact, one of the most significant sources of predation of pinnipeds in B.C. was humans, particularly in those same areas where pinnipeds congregate to consume salmon. Indigenous peoples considered seal meat an important part of their diet and made careful use of body parts for clothing and tools. One need look only as far as the UBC Museum of Anthropology to see ancient potlatch bowls the size of canoes intended for sharing this source of rich protein with others.

The perception of marine mammals as competition for the commercial fishery undoubtedly led to the actions that have upset the balance between people, pinnipeds and salmonids. The 1970s total ban on harvest or hunting of pinnipeds in B.C. was a reaction that, once implemented, modified the ecosystem management approach drastically. The pendulum swung too far, too quickly, effectively removing pinnipeds from ecosystem management, which has led to the present dire circumstances.

As many have noted, we are at a crisis level with regard to the impacts of pinnipeds on salmonid production in B.C. Combined with additional challenges due to climate change and habitat loss, many stocks of salmon and steelhead are in threatened or endangered COSEWIC status level. It is our fear and concern that if action is not taken, iconic species such as interior Fraser steelhead, for which a Province of B.C. study listed pinniped predation as a key source of juvenile mortality, may soon disappear.

The significant investment in salmon recovery in 2020 through the Pacific salmon strategy initiative, PSSI, is taking steps to address salmon recovery in an integrated manner based on the pillars of habitat restoration, enhancement, harvest transformation and communication. Efforts regarding harvest transformation have ensured that targeted fishing related mortality is no longer a limiting factor in the productivity of salmon, but absent from the other pillars and PSSI consultation sessions and working groups is meaningful action or even discussion regarding pinnipeds. In what should be an objective, science-driven process that must include all elements of the issue at hand, pinniped discussion is conspicuously absent. While meaningful inclusion of this sensitive and political subject is understandably challenging, ignoring or avoiding it is unacceptable and has the potential to render all other actions ineffective and insufficient.

We are encouraged to know that work is under way to restore indigenous harvest, and we congratulate and support those efforts to the fullest. However, we are concerned that the pace of these efforts will not be enough to address the scale of the problem in a timely manner. Fortunately, and with similarities to the SRKW, we can look south at methods and tactics successfully implemented to address the issues and to help restore the historical role humans have played in maintaining a balance between pinnipeds and salmonids.

We are hopeful that the objective—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bird. We're going to have to end it there to give time for questioning.

We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for six minutes or less please.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll thank all of the witnesses for being here today.

I'm going to focus most of my questions on the west coast. We've had a lot of testimony regarding the east coast, so it's great to have some west coast representatives here.

I know you were in the room earlier today. Do you see a similarity between the east coast and west coast with pinniped populations and impacts on fish stocks?

[Martin Paish, Director, Sustainable Fisheries, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia]

Thank you very much, MP Arnold.

It was most interesting to listen to the testimony this morning and at the same time distressing to see situations unfolding in British Columbia that are absolutely similar to those that have been unfolding and well documented on the east coast for what appears to be decades. We're dealing with similar situations.

In some cases, I've heard of four stocks of commercial fish that were facing extinction as a result of pinniped predation. The similarity with interior Fraser steelhead, which is an iconic species in British Columbia, is there. I know that you are very well aware of that situation, MP Arnold.

Yes, there are definite similarities. I think what's challenging to me as a west coast representative is to see the length of time that this issue has been discussed and the little action that's unfolded. It's fairly new in British Columbia, yet it seems to be that we're facing a dire future.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I would be remiss if I didn't also mention that we're now hearing of similar issues on the north coast. All three of Canada's coasts are facing issues regarding ecosystem management, basically because of the disregard for pinniped management in the process.

Can you both describe the observations that you've had over time? I think you both have been involved in the fishing sector on the west coast for a number of years. What have you seen change over time?

Try to keep it as short as you can, but I would like to hear that.

[Owen Bird]

Yes, it's a short answer to a long time. I agree.

Right from early childhood, I've spent my time fishing on the coast in and around some of the very same environments that are now observing this tremendous.... They are basically being overwhelmed by pinnipeds.

This is something that has occurred through the 1990s, and particularly into the 2000s, to where we find ourselves now, so much so that there are examples that I can refer to.

In Campbell River, for example, there are angler groups that have been involved in chinook net-pen rearing activities. They've done that for many years. Recently they have encountered problems with pinnipeds coming into the river area where those net pens are. Basically, the Quinsam hatchery, which funds and supports that activity, said that it won't do it any longer because pinnipeds are interfering with the ability to do that.

There are many very small and large examples all over the coast where those kinds of things are happening as a direct result of populations of pinnipeds moving into areas and just expanding in such large numbers.