Evidence of meeting #63 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was problem.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you.
You talked about pinniped predation on steelhead. We've also heard previously about impacts and that pinnipeds will become selective in what species they will take.
I know you're working on trying to get a mark-selective fishery happening in a very limited and very conservative way.
Can pinnipeds tell the difference between a marked fish and an unmarked fish, the way harvesters can?
Director, Sustainable Fisheries, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia
Thank you, MP Arnold. I'm happy to address that question. I can do it very quickly.
Just like people, just like southern resident killer whales and just like other salmon, it's pretty apparent based on my experience and having depredation events occur when I spend my time on the water that pinnipeds cannot tell the difference between hatchery fish or wild fish in any way, shape or form.
Again, that's similar to other species out there.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you.
Have you observed where they may target a male fish versus a female fish or vice versa in the returning fish? Is there any evidence of that?
Director, Sustainable Fisheries, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia
I don't know if there's evidence of targeting as much as there's evidence of being selective about what's consumed. Seals and sea lions tend to rip the bellies out of fish and like to consume the roe.
We do see species-specific targeting. My experience is in Cowichan Bay. It occurs elsewhere, but in Cowichan Bay specifically sea lions and seals will swim through a school of chum salmon in order to target a coho or a chinook. That's been observed many times.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
That's very interesting.
For how much of the year are these seals and sea lions actually there eating fish? Are they only seasonal or it is year-round?
Executive Director, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia
They are opportunistic animals and so part of the problem is that there is now enough of a population that they're in places where they might ordinarily have appeared seasonally when they know that the smolts are coming out or the adults are coming in. Now they are there all year round and then, of course, they are there in greater numbers at those times and places where they understand that there will be salmon there for them to consume.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Arnold. That's right on the mark.
We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less.
Go ahead, please.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My questions are for Mr. Thériault first.
Mr. Thériault, I believe your reputation is well established in the field. You are well known. You recently attended the Seal Summit in Newfoundland and Labrador. You said that the summit was off the mark. I have some of the same concerns, and I feel that we've had more than enough meetings and summits like that in the past few years.
Why do you say that it was off the mark? What did they do wrong? Could they have identified the root of the problem and fixed the seal overpopulation issue once and for all?
Director, Intra-Quebec Sealers Association
Thank you for the question, Mr. Cormier.
To me, it all comes down to really wanting to take action. I went to the summit in Newfoundland and Labrador, and I thought some of it was interesting. We need science, okay, but I totally agree with the person on the last panel who said that we've had enough science. We know that the seal is at the top of the food chain, that it eats what's at the bottom and that it's opportunistic. They are going to eat whatever is there. We could argue about this for another 20 years to get more scientific details, but we're going to come to the same conclusion: We have too many seals and that's causing a problem in the ecosystem.
In addition, the international markets are very attractive to Newfoundland and Labrador. They are much less so for the Maritimes, the Inuit and Quebec. The problem in Quebec is that we can't meet the demand for the existing market. This year, we would have liked to hunt 3,000 to 4,000 seals just for the meat, but we hunted 800. I feel we need to recognize that we have more than one problem. We have a number of problems, and the challenges vary from region to region.
We also addressed a third topic, but I don't really remember. I must say we often talk about informing people about the seal issue and convincing them we have a problem. I have a university degree in communications and I'm telling you, I've been seeing this since 1992 and there is no solution. The people who don't believe we have a problem will never believe it. You'd have more luck convincing a Muslim that there's no Allah or a Catholic that there's no God. It's never going to happen. It's high time we got on with it.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
I just thought of another question. You talked about science, and I also believe we have a tremendous amount of data about seals.
You recently took part in a scientific hunt, which ended a short time ago. What was the purpose of this hunt? Why gather more data if we already have enough? Why did you take part in that hunt?
Director, Intra-Quebec Sealers Association
It's hard to refuse to take part in scientific hunts because we always need more data. It's always interesting to have data. However, data is not the problem. The problem is the government has to actually be willing to take action.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
You talked about markets, including the seal market and the fact that Quebec can't meet the demand. Other markets, like those in the Magdalen Islands, are very significant. I'm thinking of the lobster and crab markets. You know that we will leave ourselves open to threats if we don't do things properly in terms of hunting and slaughtering seals.
In your opinion, are we prepared to risk everything for our other markets that are so important to our economy, like the crab and lobster markets? How will people react if we decide to slaughter seals in large numbers? We know it will have an impact on other species' ecosystems.
It feels like we've been going in circles for several years. It's the number one excuse. How do we solve this?
Director, Intra-Quebec Sealers Association
Here's the problem: If we don't do something about the seals, we will no longer have any markets to defend. We won't have any crabs. We won't have any lobster. We'll have nothing left.
Director, Intra-Quebec Sealers Association
In my opinion, putting off action because we're being intimidated—I think we can call it that—by the United States is going to lead us straight to a dead end, and before you know it the fishing industry in the Maritimes will be gone forever.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you very much, Mr. Thériault.
Ms. Carruthers, on the same topic, you said that you represent 13,000 FFAW members, fishers and fish plant workers.
Again, if we do it wrong, we risk having difficulties with our markets for crab, lobster and other species when it comes to our exportation.
One of the previous witnesses—I'm not sure if you were listening—said that the U.S. is getting mad right now because of the overpopulation of seal, and some of those seals are getting to the U.S. That's what he was saying, and that the U.S. was telling us to do something about it.
Do you think that discussions should happen at the higher level, whether it's from the Prime Minister's Office with a visit with the U.S. President, or maybe a minister from trade or DFO going to the U.S. and saying, “Look, there's a problem here. We want to solve it. We have to do something about it, and here's what we want to do”?
Do you think that we're at a time now when this is what we need to do? We have enough science. We have had enough meetings. Don't you think this is what we have to do now?
Fisheries Scientist, Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union
I'm sorry. Was that question directed at me? I didn't hear the start.
Fisheries Scientist, Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union
Okay. Thank you.
Yes, I think so. I also think that to prepare for that meeting, if you had a concentrated group of people—building off some of the ideas that Dion Dakins said—working together to identify action items and short three-year timelines, you could also strengthen that argument considerably, but yes, it needs to be elevated.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Cormier.
We'll now go to Madam Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Thériault, I'm glad to see you here before this committee. I'm sure everyone sitting at this table can appreciate the breadth of knowledge you've acquired since 1992. You're almost my father's age. We saw each other in the Magdalen Islands not long ago, and I got to see then just how much the seal hunt is an integral part of Magdalen society.
I wonder why we can't keep up with the demand. In Quebec, restaurants want to put seal on their menu, and grocers want to sell seal meat.
Is it a lack of training or opportunities, or is it about money? Are other factors involved?
What are your thoughts on this?
Director, Intra-Quebec Sealers Association
Many factors come into play, but one of the biggest ones is the fact that the seal industry was founded on the harp seal hunt. It's a completely different hunt than the grey seal hunt, which is fairly recent. It began a decade or so ago, and we've been quietly, gradually learning how to hunt grey seals ever since.
The grey seal lives in small colonies that scatter everywhere. It tends to sit on the shore, unlike harp seals, which still need the ice, especially to give birth. In about 10 years, the grey seal has adapted to the banks and the absence of ice. Obviously, if you shoot once at a colony of 2,000 seals, there won't be many left on the beach when you take your second shot. We're still in the very early days of that hunt.
It's very complicated to hunt grey seal in large numbers. Of course, there is a significant lack of training on how to harvest seal meat to preserve its quality. People have become accustomed to hunting harp seals for their pelts. Since we don't eat the pelts, getting it wrong is only relatively serious. The same goes for the blubber. The products must be of the finest quality.
We have a long way to go. I, for one, think it's unfortunately too late for the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The grey seal population, which used to range from 5,000 to 10,000, is now half a million and growing. In addition, we need to think about all the regulations in place. You can't hunt at certain times, in certain places or with certain boats. Then we have the age issue. We have so many obstacles in our way that an already complex hunt becomes virtually impossible.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Could more flexible methods, hunting tools, education or an interpretive centre help improve the situation? Could recreational hunting be a tool to bring in more hunters and develop more techniques?
To be honest, I find that Magdalen Islanders have an approach quite similar to that of Indigenous people in terms of humans and seals co-existing in harmony, and they realize what that means culturally. I believe that will give them strength internationally in terms of communications.
Do you feel we could do more to highlight this approach?
Director, Intra-Quebec Sealers Association
I absolutely agree with that. I believe we need to get rid of a lot of red flags. We need a simpler approach.
Right now, we have trouble getting sealers, much less professional sealers. We also have many enthusiasts or hunters who do it for their personal needs. You have to understand that restrictions are in place. For example, you can't change zones, or hunt in a certain section at a certain time of year with a certain type of firearm, and so on.
We know that even if you took away as many regulations as possible, it would still be complicated to hunt seals. We need to keep some regulations to get things done properly, but some are completely unnecessary. I feel we really need to clean up all the regulations around the seal hunt.