Fisheries Committee on April 27th, 2023

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I have to intercept you, here.

I have another question that I want to pose to all of you. I know you won't all have time to respond, so, if you could present something in writing, that would be useful.

We have heard that the main barrier to managing the populations is public perception that this is cruel. It has certainly been driven by a lot of people who may have good intentions, but really don't understand what life is like for the people who are involved and a stakeholder in all of this. What do we do?

Murray, I'll turn to you for a comment. The others can chime in written-wise, if necessary.

Can we mobilize first nations groups, fisheries and unions on both sides of the border to really come up with a single voice as to what needs to be done and how best it's to be done?

[Murray Ned-Kwilosintun]

Thank you for the question. I appreciate it.

Our first initiative would be to get the baseline data and the information on the population—that's what we want to do—and then determine if they're overpopulated. I don't think we have that information at this point. If there was a surplus of pinnipeds available, we would look at harvesting. That would also contribute to saving many of the salmon that my friend Jesse and others were talking about.

In terms of the proactive work to be done with our U.S. counterparts, I'd love to do that work on the Pacific Salmon Treaty. We are often working with tribal groups down there. As well, we have the Coast Salish Gathering, which is 54 first nations and tribes within the Pacific northwest.

All that is to say is we can learn from one another, and we must learn from one another and utilize that into the future.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

If others have an answer to that particular question, by all means, please send it in to the clerk. We'll make sure that it's a part of the committee's study.

We'll now go to Madam Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony.

Ms. Shears, I was very moved by what you said because your approach is very humane and you seem to have a great deal of respect for the animal, its survival and its ecological balance, the whole picture. You are also resource conscious. You said that, if we do not manage the pinniped population, there will be no more market because there will be no more fish.

What can we do in 2023 to restore acceptability? I think you have the right approach, but how can we further promote it? Can we help you with that?

[Jen Shears]

Education is very important. As I said in my opening remarks, members of the government need to know what supports these activities, such as the process for hunting seals. There are steps that you need to follow to be in compliance with the regulations. We need to start with education so that those in power know what is at stake. Then, as someone mentioned, I think that we need to establish partnerships with organizations and industries in other places, like the United States. They could relay those same messages. I think that education is very important.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

You are talking about education, but there are several aspects to that. There are, of course, various educational approaches that can be taken, for example, on ethical seal hunting techniques and how to hunt seal in a way that maximizes the resource, in other words, not sacrificing the life of the animal and then wasting three-quarters of its body. That is one area of education.

Another area would be to teach ethical hunting skills. Is that another way of doing things? Education is very broad term. Could you be more specific?

[Jen Shears]

We need to provide education on products. I think that is what Canadian Seal Products is doing. That organization educates people by teaching them that the products are sustainable and biodegradable and that they contribute to people's health and the health of the animals themselves.

It is difficult because these realities are not necessarily what the organizations that are against seal hunting like to present or want to hear. First, we need to communicate with Canadians to educate them about the hunt and its outcomes. That is important. We also need to educate those in power so that they understand what seal hunting is all about and defend it when necessary.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Do you think that legislative and financial support could help the organizations that are sharing a positive message?

[Jen Shears]

Yes, of course.

What is more, if we could show that these countries are violating the conventions on biological diversity by imposing these bans and if we could call into question the validity of these bans, then we could show the world that we are on the right side.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

We need to give ourselves the tools to counterbalance the bad propaganda.

[Jen Shears]

Yes, absolutely.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

That is all for me. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madam Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron, for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Ms. Shears, I was wondering if you can expand a bit further on what you were saying about the ways in which the seal product ban is in direct contraction with UNDRIP. Can you expand on that?

[Jen Shears]

Yes, we have indigenous populations and local populations saying that the bans are reducing prices overall, so it's not worthwhile for them to go out to harvest the product and put it to market.

I'm a broken record sometimes, but Angry Inuk shows you a prime example of how these bans are spitting in the face of indigenous peoples and of local, rural Canadians, and for no good reason. It's hypocritical. It's racist. It does no good for the wildlife that these organizations claim to care about. It's so short-sighted. I honestly can't believe we're here in 2023, when renewable resources that are abundant, biodegradable products, healthy things, humane harvesting and these things are so important to the world, and we're here trying to figure out how to make it happen.

It contravenes conventions. It contravenes common sense. It contravenes how we should be living.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Shears.

Mr. Ned, Kwilosintun, would you like to share your thoughts as well? I know you also mentioned the direct impacts and the contradictions with UNDRIP.

[Murray Ned-Kwilosintun]

Yes, thank you, and you did pretty well with the pronunciation of Kwilosintun.

I think most nations are starting their path forward in terms of UNDRIP implementation, and sometimes we have to wait for government ministries, like DFO, to begin implementing it. We can't wait too long, especially with the decline of salmon. I know we're talking about pinnipeds here, but maybe we have to be the balance. We have an inherent right and an obligation to look after resources within our territories, and certainly the nations are looking at that as an opportunity to work with government, partner if we can, and if we can't I think sometimes you just have to do things for the sake of the resource.

As an example, we have chinook for salmon ceremonies, and we can't have those now for a number of reasons. I mentioned in my comments that climate change is affecting salmon, but if we can't have those, then we have to figure out what the issues are. Sometimes it is predation and it's pinnipeds actively going after those particular fish.

In terms of UNDRIP and DRIPA and reconciliation, the time is now and first nations are ready, at least in the Lower Fraser.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you so much.

My next question is for Mr. Zeman.

Mr. Zeman, I'm so sad that I wasn't able to make the B.C. Wildlife Federation convention that took place in my riding just recently, in Nanaimo. Could you expand—because it's unfortunate that I missed it—about the resolution you were referencing that was brought forward dealing with a sustainable seal harvest?

[Jesse Zeman]

Yes. Being such a big organization, it is a major operation to bring representatives for over 41,000 people, but essentially we have resolutions that come forward every year and we deal with them.

One came forward around pinnipeds, and we had Dr. Murdoch McAllister speaking. We're actually supporting a post-doc at UBC around steelhead recovery, so we deferred the resolution until after he was done and essentially, as an organization now that is involved in all facets of trying to restore salmon, our message is that we support pinniped management.

We obviously support what Ms. Shears is talking about around sustainable use. That's a way of life for us and for our members. Murray referred to the Lower Fraser collaborative table, and certainly we're a part of that and there is consistency across all groups.

We have our days where there are fireworks, but with regard to pinnipeds I think there's consistency across the groups. It's just a way to formalize how we think and how we lead, as a conservation organization.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you so much.

I believe this will be my final question, looking at my time, but I'll try to get more in, because I do that.

The Steelhead Society is another organization I have met with as well. Thank you for bringing up the impacts on the steelhead. One of the key recommendations the Steelhead Society is bringing forward in order to begin protecting steelhead is around monitoring and comprehensive data gathering. You spoke a bit about this as well.

Can you speak to whether you're in agreement with that? Is it one of the number one things that need to happen? How does it relate to pinniped management?

[Jesse Zeman]

We have a number of systems we monitor extensively. As it's been said, the Gold River is on Vancouver Island. It's on the west coast, of course. You know where it is. It's a couple of hours from your backyard. When you get down and you start counting zeros, the time for monitoring has long passed us. When you get down to 20 fish in the Chilcotin and 104 in the Thompson.... We can start counting in the Skeena and do a better job because we still have thousands of fish, but on Vancouver Island and off the Fraser, we do not have thousands of fish to count anymore.

Again, I would urge this committee to take the triage approach and say, “We don't have any fish in these areas. We need to start pulling all tools available so that we can ensure that these animals, these fish, do not go functionally extinct.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, and not a second over.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Ms. Shears.

You mentioned an underlying racism in animal rights campaigns against sealing. Would you like to elaborate a bit more on that?

[Jen Shears]

It's such a loaded question.

When the anti-seal hunt group—or animal rights groups in general—targets people.... They might not necessarily intend to target them, but when you're targeting people who live off the land, you're targeting indigenous peoples and you're targeting rural peoples. They don't seem to have any concept or regard for how humans are part of the ecosystem and how, since time immemorial, we have been part of the ecosystem. We're no better and we're no worse, but we're with it. We certainly have the steward component of it. They have no regard.

The EU ban in 2009, for example, put in the exemption for indigenous products, but indigenous peoples and indigenous communities said, “This does not work for us, because this drives the price so low for seal pelts, for example, that it doesn't make it financially feasible anymore.” They just went on their merry way and carried on with their tactics and their plans despite that.

It's very patronizing and racist, for sure.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Ms. Shears.

Would you be able to tell the committee about your experience in your business, Natural Boutique, with potential customers from outside Canada? What have you experienced in terms of demand for your products?