Evidence of meeting #71 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investors.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Duncan Cameron  Director, British Columbia Crab Fishermen's Association
Brad Callaghan  Associate Deputy Commissioner, Policy, Planning and Advocacy Directorate, Competition Bureau
Anthony Durocher  Deputy Commissioner, Competition Promotion Branch, Competition Bureau
Pierre-Yves Guay  Associate Deputy Commissioner, Cartels Directorate , Competition Bureau
Shendra Melia  Director General, Trade in Services, Intellectual Property and Investment, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
James Burns  Senior Director, Policy, Department of Industry

4:25 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Competition Promotion Branch, Competition Bureau

Anthony Durocher

Unfortunately, complaints received by the bureau must remain confidential. I can tell you, however, that roughly speaking, we receive over 4,000 complaints a year from Canadians about all kinds of practices in all kinds of industries. All complaints are carefully examined by officers to determine whether there are grounds for investigating a particular type of behaviour. It's the evidence and the facts that are decisive, in these cases.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Do you lack resources or certain powers to do more with certain sectors?

We've welcomed desperate people to the committee, who'd lost almost everything through some not-so-nice sleight-of-hand. So together we're looking for an avenue to avoid losing the resources that live in our waters and that, fundamentally, belong to Canadians and Quebeckers.

Could you have more powers than you have now?

4:25 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Competition Promotion Branch, Competition Bureau

Anthony Durocher

Our mandate is very clear and simple: to protect and promote competition in Canada's economy, in all sectors.

As for the Competition Bureau's resources, in 2021, the government has greatly increased them. After 10 years without any increase, this was well received.

With regard to our ability to act and intervene in the event of problems on the competition front, I would point out that a review of Canada's Competition Act is underway, with a view to modernizing it. Generally speaking, this is a fairly important exercise. If the Competition Bureau is to intervene in a market, the act must provide it with the tools it needs to investigate and act quickly to resolve competition-related problems, whether in connection with mergers, abuse of a dominant position or possible cartels. This exercise to modernize the Competition Act is very important to ensure that the bureau can intervene to protect and promote competition.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes or less. Go ahead, please.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Cameron, are you seeing many young harvesters entering the industry?

4:30 p.m.

Director, British Columbia Crab Fishermen's Association

Duncan Cameron

The crab fishery probably has more young harvesters than a lot of other fisheries do, because of the growing value, but in the fishing industry as a whole, I would say no.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Of these few young people you're seeing entering, are many or any of them owner-operators of vessels?

4:30 p.m.

Director, British Columbia Crab Fishermen's Association

Duncan Cameron

It's a bit of a unique situation. In the area where I fish, which is northern British Columbia, I am the only non-Vietnamese-Canadian captain in the fleet. The Vietnamese-Canadian population makes up a very big part of the crab fleet.

Many of them own the licence themselves, or the family owns it—maybe a mom, a dad or a wife—so they may not technically be owner-operators, but theirs is a family-run business.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Have you seen any generational changes over the years around owner-operators and how those have looked, for example, in terms of what you're seeing today versus what you were seeing perhaps even just one generation ago?

4:30 p.m.

Director, British Columbia Crab Fishermen's Association

Duncan Cameron

I would say not from the standpoint of a generation ago, but just within the last five years the fishery has grown in value significantly. We see large processors looking to control costs and buy licences and we see more leasing-out from processors.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

That's great.

Mr. Chair, I didn't time myself.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

We're at one minute and 15 seconds.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you very much.

My last question, Mr. Cameron, is specifically around the landed price for catch. Do you believe there are buyers communicating with one another ahead of time to discuss the prices that should be paid? Is this something you have seen?

4:30 p.m.

Director, British Columbia Crab Fishermen's Association

Duncan Cameron

It's a bit of a speculative thing for me to say, but I know that as fishermen we certainly coordinate with one another as to what prices are. I imagine buyers do something similar, but I can't provide evidence of that.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you.

I'm going to ask one more. With regard to the 2019 recommendations that have been put forward, do you have any thoughts on why we've been seeing such delayed movement on the actions that were recommended?

4:30 p.m.

Director, British Columbia Crab Fishermen's Association

Duncan Cameron

To be quite frank, it doesn't seem as though the Pacific region has much interest in moving many of those recommendations ahead.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

What do you think could be done to help move those recommendations forward?

4:30 p.m.

Director, British Columbia Crab Fishermen's Association

Duncan Cameron

I catch crab for a living. I don't know how to herd bureaucrats, unfortunately. How can we get them to do it faster? I'm sorry, but I don't have an answer for you.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

That's a good answer. Thank you.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Ms. Barron. I think the trophy goes to Mr. Cameron for such a wonderful answer on that one.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Excuse me, Mr. Chair. I'm just wondering if, before we break, we could ask the members from the Competition Bureau to supply something in writing that describes what was going on and the changes that were made in 2009. I think that would be useful to us, looking ahead.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I think they've heard the question. If they can provide the committee with that information, I'm sure they'll do it and send it in to the clerk, who will distribute it to all the members.

That concludes our first testimony.

I want to thank our witnesses for coming in today and sharing such valuable information with the committee.

We'll suspend for a few moments to change panels. We'll let Mr. Arnold take over to begin the last hour of testimony and questions.

Thank you all. I hope to see you soon.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mel Arnold

I'd like to call us back to order for the second half of our meeting.

I'd now like to welcome the witnesses for the second hour.

Representing the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we have Karl Van Kessel, deputy director, investment trade policy; Shendra Melia, director general, trade and services, intellectual property and investment; and Callie Stewart, executive director, investment trade policy; and, representing the Department of Industry, we have James Burns, senior director, policy.

I'd like to take the time to thank you for appearing today.

You'll have five minutes for opening statements.

I believe Shendra Melia will be opening for that department. I'm not sure if the Department of Industry is going to make opening remarks. If we can keep the total opening remarks to six or so minutes, that would be fantastic. Thank you.

Please go ahead.

4:40 p.m.

Shendra Melia Director General, Trade in Services, Intellectual Property and Investment, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you very much.

My colleagues and I are pleased to appear before this committee today regarding your study of foreign ownership and corporate concentration of fishing licences and quota in order to provide an overview of Canada's commitments under international investment treaties to assist you in your ongoing work.

There are very few rules pertaining to investment under the World Trade Organization, so most of my remarks will therefore focus on international investment treaties. These are foreign investment promotion and protection agreements and chapters in our free trade agreements, which essentially cover the same areas.

To begin, it is important to note that investment commitments are fundamentally different from the goods market access commitments with which most people are probably more familiar.

The objective of an investment treaty is to create a level playing field for investment and investors of both treaty partners. Parties to an investment treaty commit essentially not to undertake certain types of measures against the investments and investors of the other party, usually regardless of the sector. Importantly, these agreements do not offer preferential treatment to those investors, nor do they offer specific levels of market access to the Canadian market.

The core commitments in an investment treaty are numerous: Parties can't discriminate against investors of the other party based on their nationality, whether in comparison to Canadian investors or investors of a third country; parties cannot expropriate or nationalize investments without fair compensation; parties can't treat the investor of the other party in a manner that falls below a minimum standard of treatment found in customary international law; parties cannot impose nationality requirements on senior management of an enterprise; parties cannot impose performance requirements that distort business decisions.

Finally, parties cannot limit the cross-border transfer of investment-related funds.

However, all of these commitments I just mentioned are very much circumscribed by a combination of carefully drafted exceptions and reservations in areas that are typically sensitive to either Canada or the partner with which the party is negotiating.

Importantly, I also want to also emphasize that parties to investment treaties maintain their right to regulate domestically to achieve legitimate policy objectives, such as the protection of the environment.

It's also important to note that Canada's investment treaties are broadly consistent with one another, but each individual agreement includes differences that would be very difficult to summarize here today.

In negotiating these treaties, we seek cabinet mandates, and we consult with relevant departments and agencies, with provinces and territories, and of course with stakeholders.

To bring it back to fisheries in particular, investment treaties, as I mentioned, do not guarantee a specific level of access to the Canadian market.

More than two decades ago, Canada also started to include in treaties an exception whereby we explicitly maintain the policy flexibility to discriminate on the basis of nationality in relation to licensing of fisheries and other fishing-related activities. This means that Canada can give special treatment to Canadian investors in the fisheries sector that it does not need to extend to investors of any treaty partner.

However, the exceptions I just mentioned above do not allow for other violations of our investment treaties, such as the right not to expropriate investments without fair compensation.

Finally, all investment treaties, except for the Canada-U.S.-Mexico agreement, include a dispute settlement mechanism, commonly called investor-state dispute settlement, which allows investors of one party to bring a claim against the other to enforce commitments under an international agreement. However, this mechanism cannot force a party to modify its law; it can only order monetary damages to be paid if a tribunal finds that the party in question has violated its treaty obligations.

On this point, I would like to emphasize as well that no dispute has ever been brought against Canada in relation to the fisheries industry.

To conclude, Canada's international investment treaties neither offer preferential treatment to foreign investors nor offer them a specific level of access to the Canadian market. In most cases, these treaties explicitly provide Canada with the flexibility to discriminate on the basis of nationality in relation to licensing of fisheries and other fishing-related activities.

Thank you very much for your attention.

I'd be pleased to hand whatever times remains to my colleague.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mel Arnold

Thank you.

We're at about four and a half minutes, but don't feel too rushed.