Evidence of meeting #8 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Timothy Sargent  Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Jean-Guy Forgeron  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Harbour Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Alexandra Dostal  Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Mario Pelletier  Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Doug Wentzell  Regional Director General, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Niall O'Dea  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Neil Davis  Regional Director, Fisheries Management Branch, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Arran McPherson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Oceans Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I call this meeting to order. Good morning, everyone.

Welcome to meeting number eight of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on January 18, 2022, the committee is proceeding to a briefing by the minister and her officials on the minister's mandate letter and matters related to her department.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. Please inform me immediately if interpretation is lost, and we'll ensure it is restored before resuming.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. For those joining us by video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself before speaking. Please note that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. For those in the room, your mike will be controlled as usual by the proceedings and verification officer.

I'd now like to welcome the Honourable Joyce Murray, Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, who will be with us for the first hour, and the officials, who have joined us virtually and in person for the full two hours today.

Minister Murray, the floor is yours.

February 17th, 2022 / 11:05 a.m.

Vancouver Quadra B.C.

Liberal

Joyce Murray LiberalMinister of Fisheries

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

I am very pleased to be here today, in Ottawa, on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Having served on this committee in a previous Parliament some 10 or so years ago, I want to thank you for the work you do and for your invitation to speak with you today as the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard.

I'm joined by senior officials from DFO and the Canadian Coast Guard, including Timothy Sargent, deputy minister; Mario Pelletier, commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard; and other knowledgeable officials. After my remarks, we'll be happy to take your questions.

As we know, Canadians are feeling the impacts of climate-related extremes first-hand, from devastating wildfires and flooding to heat waves and droughts. Our oceans play a critical role in climate change. They are a source of sustainable rural economic opportunity that is so important to Canadians, provided that we pursue an agenda for long-term sustainability. This means prioritizing long-term success over short-term expediency at times.

In the years to come and in alignment with my mandate letter, my focus and that of my department is on some key priorities.

One is the fishers and their communities on all coasts. Another is to defend, protect and restore coastal and marine habitat. Another is to enhance species protection, including effective actions that rebuild and regenerate fish stocks and limit illegal fisheries. I want to make sure that Canada's ocean plant and fish biomass grow in diversity and abundance, and thus contribute to the fight against climate change and contribute to opportunities in coastal communities. Finally, as a result of this work together, I want to build a stronger and more sustainable blue economy.

Our government is making generational investments to protect and restore Pacific salmon and their ecosystems by working in partnership with indigenous nations and other governments. In the DFO, we're creating a road map to transition away from open-net pen salmon farming in coastal B.C. waters while introducing Canada's first ever aquaculture act. On the east coast, I fully support fishing opportunities for communities aligned with the precautionary principle that serves to protect and regenerate marine environments and the life forms they sustain.

I know how important the Canadian Coast Guard and its work protecting mariners is on all three coasts.

Our continued investment in small craft harbours will support the commercial fishing industry. Since the modernization of the Fisheries Act in 2019, millions have been invested to implement the provisions of the renewed act, which includes new funding for data collection and science for priority fish stocks and fish habitat Canada-wide.

Underpinning this necessary work are the learning, respect and partnerships that DFO is developing as our government delivers on our commitment to reconciliation through nation-to-nation relationships with indigenous peoples. This is why my department, for example, created a stand-alone Arctic division to fundamentally reset the way the department coordinates and conducts business to better serve indigenous peoples and northerners.

The blue future I envision is one where our prosperity is the net result of our efforts to achieve a healthier environment and a stable climate. This means supporting innovation and seizing emerging ecosystem-friendly economic opportunities to protect the long-term prosperity of coastal communities. These are new industries that make these communities more resilient and add to the important work they do fishing the resources of the ocean.

Canada's blue economy strategy for Canada must prioritize ocean health to drive ocean wealth for people. In pursuit of this ambitious agenda, we will work to halt and reverse nature loss by meeting our goals to conserve 25% of Canada's land and waters by 2025 and 30% by 2030. We will modernize the Oceans Act to better understand and mitigate climate change impacts on ocean ecosystems. We will explore ways to renew and expand the scope of the coastal restoration fund to waterways beyond coastal areas. We'll build on the ghost gear program successes to get more lost and abandoned fishing gear, plastics and debris out of our marine ecosystems.

This year, as we celebrate the 60th anniversary of the Canadian Coast Guard, our government is continuing to renew the fleet.

The significant long-term investments in new ships for both the Canadian Coast Guard and the navy are creating good-paying jobs for Canadians and will be doing so for decades to come.

Across government, we have the partnerships, science, political will and financial resources to reimagine our future and solidify Canada’s reputation as a supplier of top-quality seafood and as a leading ocean nation determined to rebuild, regenerate and restore our oceans for the generations to come.

Thank you.

I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now go to our questions.

Mr. Perkins, you have six minutes or less, please.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, 65 days ago this committee gave you notice of this appearance for two hours after two meeting debates. Several days ago, we got notice of this meeting that you were going to appear for two hours with the entire department management team with you to back you up.

Less than two hours ago, we got notice that you decided to defy the vote of this parliamentary committee and stay for less than an hour. Who ordered you to not appear for the full two hours—the Prime Minister's Office or your government House leader?

Quickly...and I don't want to hear from the officials.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Thank you for that question. I am really looking forward to this hour to hear your questions—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Answer the question, please. I don't have a lot of time.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

—and respond to them. The officials will then be able to—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Answer my question about who ordered you to shorten it today, please.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Pardon me?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Answer my question and keep it short, because I have only a few minutes.

Who ordered you not to appear for the full two hours as per the vote of this committee?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Mr. Perkins, I am happy to be here to answer the questions.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Okay. Next question.

Minister, did you read the first application process, not the one that was altered by your department several months later but the first application process, for the fish harvesters benefit? Did you read it—yes or no?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Mr. Perkins, the fish harvesters benefit has provided well over $100 million for fishers—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

I'll take that as a no. You never read it, like the Marshall decision.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Excuse me, Mr. Perkins. Please address your remarks through the chair.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Mr. Chair, I will ask the next question and see if the minister can answer this one.

The original fish harvesters benefit lined up nine stages to application. The first step was to identify which of the following situations in 2020 were the “most applicable” to their situation. Since you haven't read it, I thought I'd read it to you.

In outlining the five scenarios, the application did not say “self-employed and one other”. It listed five options. Option three was, “Shareperson who is a crew member, who earns a share of the revenue.” It does not say “self-employed shareperson”. It does not say “or”. You keep misleading the House when you say that it was both.

Yes or no, do you agree that the original application process said “shareperson” only and that you and your department have confused thousands of fishermen in how you interpreted it afterwards?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

I agree we are doing our level best to serve Canadians and support them during this COVID period, Mr. Perkins, and that's what the fish harvester benefit was all about—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

By clawing back 5,000 fishermen's benefits after telling them that they were eligible by saying “self-employed” fisherman—okay. So you couldn't answer that question.

Your director of policy, Jason Rondeau, who worked for the previous—defeated—fisheries minister, in an email to Nova Scotia MPs' offices, in response to questions about the benefit when it was set up, wrote, “Someone who earns their income as a % of the catch, rather than a set wage or salary, would be eligible for the Fish Harvesters' Benefit”, and, after receiving the fish harvesters benefit, it doesn't impact somebody's “EI eligibility”.

Some 99% of fishermen fit this category, yet your department points to revenue, which then points to social development, which points to everybody else except your own responsibility for not implementing the program you set out.

Who was wrong, you or your director of policy, Jason Rondeau?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

This program was intended for fishers who are not eligible for CERB. If—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

That's not what your assistant said in the email.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. Six years I've been a parliamentarian, and I have never seen a more rude member of Parliament to a witness—ever. He is not speaking through you. He is speaking at her. He is cutting her off and he is being extremely rude.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

I'll remind Mr. Perkins again to address his remarks through the chair, please.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Okay, Mr. Chair.

I'm waiting for an answer from the minister, and she uses talking points to avoid them and Mr. Fisher—

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

He's not waiting for an answer.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

I am.