Fisheries Committee on Nov. 28th, 2023

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Who does that?

[Cathy Toxopeus]

The exporter.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

It's the exporter. In this case, it's the processor. In that situation, then, the federal ministry of fisheries would have now....

The processing sector in Canada is regulated under provincial jurisdiction. That's the buying, processing and preparing for shipment. It would not be an accurate reflection of the activity occurring in the field or on the water. Am I correct?

[Cathy Toxopeus]

You are correct.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Okay. That's what I thought.

The CBSA is simply there to check the accuracy of the documentation provided by the shipper.

Can you follow that thread through? Do you have jurisdiction to follow that thread through to who provided that processor with the raw product?

[Daniel Anson]

Those are excellent questions, for sure.

Based on the information that is provided and surfaced through the exporter requirements, we are able to do risk assessments based on our gauge of whether or not the person is compliant. In certain circumstances—to extend to the example you provided—if there are individuals, modes of transport or destinations for export that have previous enforcement actions, or that are linked to other problematic entities, criminal networks or organized criminality domestically, those are the types of threads that we will pull through the targeting process.

Our export controls are also intended to identify these types of illicit activities. We would not only assess the administrative compliance in the full and truthful verification of information supporting the export, but—

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

However, you're primarily dealing with the information that's given to you by the packers, the shippers of the product arriving at the border. The scenario, and what this study is looking at, is illegal, unreported cash sales. If the processor in this case were shipping product across the border, I'm not sure how your agency would have the legislative capability or the operational capability of testing to see if all the product that arrived at the plant arrived through regulated fisheries in compliance with those fisheries. Would that be a stretch?

[Daniel Anson]

It's not a stretch at all. The interesting aspect to people pursuing illegal activities is that we do not expect honesty in certain administrative components or phases of them. In circumstances where dishonest or non-truthful information is provided in export declarations, we do our best to ensure compliance, and we also integrate, within our intelligence partners, a lot of the research that is hopefully intended to identify those circumstances of administrative or operational non-compliance.

However, in circumstances where successful illegal exports have occurred, those are typically the types of methods that would be employed.

Yes, there is feasibility in the hypothetical example.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses very much for being with us today, and in person, among other things.

Tell me, is it important to be rigorous about traceability and labelling in your work?

[Daniel Anson]

I don't believe so. With any further details on the types of labelling you referenced, I could potentially provide a more comprehensive answer. The labelling within export declarations is very important. The labelling of goods for export is certainly important for export verifications that might be done by the CBSA or a Customs and Border Protection officer in the commercial motor-vehicle stream of land ports of exit. It is likely to be important, and it is certainly a feature. It just depends on what phase of export compliance or verification we're referencing.

Thank you for the question.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

In principle, this process should already have run its course before the merchandise arrives at your door. That's what you're telling me.

We did a study on this not long ago. In addition, I wanted to make a brief aside to find out what its weight is, once it arrives on your premises.

Do you keep statistics on the offenders you arrest at your borders? In fact, do you have a profile of offenders? Do you have statistics on species? Have you drawn up a table of all this, or do you proceed rather on a case-by-case basis?

[Daniel Anson]

We absolutely collect statistics for a variety of different reasons, not only to inform predictive analytics on non-compliance but also to guide our priorities so that we ensure that we are shifting towards some of the greatest threats, such as this, when it comes to local fishing communities on either of the coasts. We do have the statistics.

Regarding the second part of the question on profiles, we do develop profiles on individual potential bad actors or organized crime groups that would be strategically helpful to people in making determinations and assessments.

In terms of what we may or may not be able to share with the committee, it's something I can certainly look into on the statistics, if we would like to shape and stratify the question and the specific statistics that might be required here. However, in many cases, those are statistics that are drawn from internal compartmented either commercial systems or, in many cases, intelligence management systems, where we do attempt to keep a certain compartmented approach towards a lot of the intelligence that's derived.

It does also integrate and intersect with a lot of our law enforcement communities and partners and our domestic public safety partners, as well as the other government departments that have a very genuine stake within this particular topic today.

Thank you for the question, madam.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

The answer to my next question is perhaps more a matter of personal opinion. You are free to answer yes or no.

Are penalties sufficient to compel a certain number of offenders to comply with the law? Should we increase them? In your opinion, are penalties—paying the price for doing something wrong—a sufficient tool? Should we use other techniques instead?

[Daniel Anson]

Thank you for your question.

My opinion is that we are very effective at using the tools that we have at our disposal and that the administrative monetary penalties have been an impactful tool in previous cases.

With regard to whether or not the penalty matches, outweighs or is a sunk cost for the lucrative nature of exports, I'm not qualified to make that opinion. However, again, the AMPs that are available to us as a tool.... We do seek to use those to the extent possible or to use those as motivators towards compliance for illicit actors.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Beyond fines, do you have any other tools to counter crime?

[Daniel Anson]

In terms of penalties, I would have to give a bit more thought to the range of penalties. I think that the challenge is the issue of the seizure of goods destined for export, because we can seize the goods, but that does not necessarily relieve some of the pressures on local fishing communities that might have been disadvantaged by that product having been illegally harvested or unregulated in its harvesting.

The ultimate tool is ensuring that the export does not go abroad. However, I would say that we are two to three layers away from the original crime and the original issue, so I would potentially defer to some of our partner departments to assess what types of escalation or tools are available in terms of the direct regulation of the fishing industry.

For us at the border, there are certain implications should somebody attempt to export something illegally or something that is non-compliant, or to not represent the nature, the true value, of the goods deemed for export. That would certainly have an impact—if there is time, I would defer, potentially, to my colleague—on their ability to export legitimately.

Again, I think that most of the tools for escalation are more within the partner departments and agencies that have a direct role in the regulation of this particular industry.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here. Thanks for the information that you've provided so far.

This may be expanding on some of what you've already identified, but my first question, perhaps for you, Mr. Anson, is this: On what grounds can vessels be inspected and searched under the Coastal Fisheries Protection Act? Can you expand on that and share a little bit of your knowledge around that?

[Daniel Anson]

Our role, really, is at the port. If you are referencing vessels that are in the process of fishing or harvesting within or outside of our economic exclusion zone, the CBSA does not have a direct operational role, and I would defer, potentially, to Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Coast Guard.

We do not have a role in inspecting. Specific to the agency, we do provide import verifications and examinations, and we will rummage or search ships that are arriving—crews, cargo and, obviously, the vessel. We do that at ports of entry, but for vessels that are loitering abroad or conducting fishing operations, again, within our coastal waters, the CBSA does not necessarily have a role.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Can you expand a little bit on what that looks like at the ports of entry specifically?

[Daniel Anson]

Within the ports of entry, absolutely, we will ensure that there is compliance. We will assess compliance, and we will do risk assessments of the crew, the cargo, the vessel and the company for any commercial vessel that does come to a Canadian port. We will ensure that there is compliance with all of our administrative, legislative or regulatory policies.

Specific to the committee's interest, that ensures that we are not allowing aquatic diseases, endangered species, unreported cargo fish or seafood products, or any other type of threats, into either our economy or our aquatic areas, just to protect the marine wildlife environment. That's a big part of what we do. In addition, we're also ensuring that there are no other illegal types of imports or potentially undocumented workers coming through on these different vessels. That's our primary role: ensuring that there's full compliance with all the legislation that the agency enforces at ports of entry.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Could you share a little bit more around what that looks like as far as training those who are doing these searches and so on to be able to identify fishery products that may be illegal?

[Daniel Anson]

Yes, of course. It would be a pleasure.

Starting with the initial training at Rigaud for border services officers, an extensive number of training routines and repetitions occur to ensure that people are very aware of the different types of legislation and also the operational practice of searching different types of vessels, commercial motor vehicles, aircraft or air cargo, etc. The officers in the CBSA are exceptionally trained, extremely dedicated and very determined in their execution of these types of tasks.

Specifically on your question on marine vessels, there is a very specific rummaging course that officers will attend. It gives them great expertise and awareness of vessels, patterns, methods of concealment and deep concealment, but also some of the hidden areas like bulkheads and tiller flats and the different areas of a vessel that most people may not deem to be an area where you might try to smuggle different types of contraband or illegally fished or harvested products. There is extensive training.

In addition to that, to reinforce the expertise and the awareness of officers, we issue different types of operational bulletins to ensure that frontline officers are attuned to the different types of evolving threats and trends, even if they are economically dependent. Should we be trying to identify a certain type of illegally fished-abroad product, the bulletins would include what it looks like and how to identify it, and we'd also be aligning that with the different types of expertise in terms of where you could potentially deep-conceal that on a commercial vessel.

Those are the different types of integrated training that we offer our officers. Again, I think our officers are world-class in that regard and in many different regards. BSOs are at the forefront of protecting our fisheries and oceans against different types of illegal, unregulated or threatening products coming into our Canadian economy and wildlife.