Fisheries Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Fox?

[Jamie Fox]

The use of tags is a big thing that could solve a lot of problems very quickly.

I agree with the audit part, but the audit has to be cross.... If DFO goes in and does an audit, or CRA goes in and does an audit, they should cross-reference at some point with the opposite department or the opposite province, to see if they match within a tolerance of whatever.

This is a bit out there, but I think C and P should come out of DFO; I do not believe that conservation and protection should be in DFO. They should be with the Department of Justice or the Minister of Public Safety. Then they're more independent, and they can follow along more with what the Department of Justice does or with what that type of enforcement action is.

That's one thing that I think should happen sooner rather than later. I think it's not fair that the conservation and protection officers are put into situations in which politics comes into play more than the enforcement of the law. I think they could be set up almost the same as an RCMP agency in that case.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Fox.

[Ian MacPherson]

Chair, I have one more point.

I guess, quickly.... It's more provincial jurisdiction, but there should be alignment of the fines for illegal activity among the provinces.

I guess one problem, too, that we could have now is that a fine in Prince Edward Island might be $1,000 for an infraction, and it might be $200 in Nova Scotia. We share lots of waters, so that could encourage activity in a different area—

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Are you speaking of consistency of fines?

[Ian MacPherson]

Yes.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Go ahead, Mr. Small, for five minutes or less.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

We'll share some time with Ms. Ferreri.

Mr. Chair, following up on Mr. Bragdon's question about the government's knowledge of IUU fishing, most stakeholders have it, in their view, that the St. Marys Bay lobster fishery this summer and the elver fishery in the Maritimes this past spring had strong elements of IUU attached to them.

Mr. Fox, have you heard any of those allegations among stakeholders?

[Jamie Fox]

There is concern. Allegations have surfaced from time to time over the last two or three years, so yes, I would confirm that those allegations are there.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

If those allegations end up someday being proven correct, it's a funny thing that DFO would be able to let that slide. If that was Atlantic salmon that was being caught illegally, all those boys would be in the slammer, you know? Do the job to figure it out.

I have a question on mackerel. It's been brought to our attention that mackerel is being packed and sold as product of Canada mackerel, a product of Quebec. The mackerel fishery is currently under moratorium, and this is this year's mackerel.

Would that be an IUU product if that's, indeed, Canadian mackerel, when mackerel's been shut down for the last two years, Mr. Fox?

[Jamie Fox]

I'd have to say yes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I find that really odd. How could that happen? Who would be allowed to catch that fish and not be charged for catching it? Is there anyone? Is there any group or anyone who would be allowed to do that, Mr. Fox?

[Jamie Fox]

There is not, that I'm aware of.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Okay, so we'll highlight that, and we'll ask more questions in the committee as the time goes on, Mr. Chair.

The figure on the landed value of North Atlantic bluefin tuna in Europe is alarming in an internationally monitored fishery.

My last question is, is it possible that our government is not working hard enough to bring that IUU fishing down to protect Canadian Atlantic bluefin tuna harvesters, Mr. Fox?

[Jamie Fox]

I think it's a little broader than that. A prime example would be the closure of the herring and mackerel fisheries as bait fisheries for commercial fishing, yet we had no conversations with officials in other countries who were allowed to pick up that quota and fish it. I'm talking about the United States of America here.

When they cut the mackerel and the herring out for our fishers across Atlantic Canada, that quota was automatically picked up by another country. Are there other species out there for which we could be doing the same type of deal? Yes, that's a possibility.

I can tell you that I believe very strongly in relationships with foreign countries. I've had conversations over the last four years with 10 foreign governments, and I think those lines of communication need to be strengthened. When it comes to our fisheries, we need to have more direct conversations with foreign governments on species, the movement of species, enforcement and the marketplace itself.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Fox. If you have something to add to that, you can submit it in writing, and we would appreciate that as a committee.

I'm going to turn my time over to Ms. Ferreri, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

That's very generous.

Ms. Ferreri, you have a minute.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, I'll see what I can do in a minute.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Fox, serving as a provincial minister for as long as you did in the fisheries, can you tell us what the role of the federal government is in overseeing and uncovering IUU fishing? For those watching at home, that's illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing. Is it the provincial minister's role or is it the federal minister's role?

[Jamie Fox]

It's completely the federal minister's role. The provincial boundaries and provincial jurisdiction and authority apply only when a species actually lands on the dock. Anything on the water side of the boat outward is in the complete control of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the minister.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you so much for that.

Has the federal minister done her due diligence in collecting this data? How do you enforce conservation if you don't actually know the numbers of fish leaving the ocean? Aren't IUU numbers critical to managing conservation?

[Jamie Fox]

I can tell you that those concerns were brought up—I'm guessing, Chair, probably around the end of 2019 or early 2020—to Minister Bernadette Jordan on behalf of all the ministers. This was an issue, and it was brought up again to Minister Joyce Murray in conversations we had with her.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Then it's just incompetence in that part. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Ferreri. You went a bit over, but of course you didn't have much time to start with.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for five minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Actually, I'm going to give my time to my colleague, Mr. Hardie.