Fisheries Committee on Dec. 5th, 2023

[Colin Sproul]

Could you pose the question one more time? It was very long. I want to make sure I get the flavour of exactly what you were asking.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

We'll go to the last part. Is there enough clarity in the law around indigenous rights?

[Colin Sproul]

That is certainly the most important part of the question. The answer is, no, there is not enough clarity under the law. I think it was clear, after the second Marshall decision, that the court was sending that back to the government and to the House in that it required further negotiation.

I think there has been a lot of good effort since that time, by a whole bunch of successive governments, to negotiate with the nations to move forward, but there needs to be good faith between the government and first nations leadership that access supplied to first nations will allow people to fish, or else the solution will never become apparent.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. McIsaac, could you reflect on that?

[Jim McIsaac]

I would say that on this coast, it's outside of nations. It's individuals. It's not just first nations individuals who are responsible for this. It's much broader than what you're implying with your question.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I think I'll end there.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

Mr. Sproul, do you discuss the illegal fisheries you mentioned with your counterparts in Quebec?

[Colin Sproul]

Yes, certainly we do. We consider the RPPSG a very close ally. Our positions on the issue are very closely aligned, I would say. The issue has really important implications for the future of Quebec fisheries. We certainly co-operate fully and frequently with the RPPSG.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

What does that tell you?

You say that there are just as many problems on the Quebec side. Would an alliance, a common front or a grouping be necessary to give people a stronger voice and remedy the situation?

[Colin Sproul]

Certainly. There is a group or coalition amongst people in the Gulf of St. Lawrence in the RPPSG, the MFU, the PEIFA and the gulf fleet planning board. We represent essentially the same interests in the Maritimes region. Although we're not officially both part of the same group, our positions on the issue certainly align. We work frequently together.

The leadership of the RPPSG has been a really strong voice for a respectful approach to integration of first nations into the fishery. They have also pointed out the fallacies of how the government has moved forward on that, particularly in the LMG issue, where the minister chose to abdicate a responsibility to manage the fishery and the rights reconciliation agreement, certainly not in line with the Marshall decision. It's a chief concern of the RPPSG's.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is for Mr. McIsaac or Mr. Sproul.

I know it's hard to gauge because it's illegal, but do you have a sense of what percentage of seafood products comes from the Gulf and what percentage comes from illegal fisheries in eastern waters?

[Colin Sproul]

I think from fishermen's perspective in Atlantic Canada, the whole point is that we don't know the answer to that question, because the government refuses to keep any type of accurate records about FSE fisheries. Records were kept for a while, until the records started to reveal the abuses of the fishery. At that time the government stopped keeping the records, but they wouldn't represent the entirety of what the fishery really means.

Anecdotally, we've seen maybe two to three million pounds removed from St. Marys Bay this summer, but it's really hard to pinpoint the number exactly. That's just one location where the illegal fishing is centred.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

That's a huge amount for that sector alone.

What is the Department of Fisheries and Oceans not doing that could solve a lot of this problem?

You said earlier that we really need to tighten up oversight.

Should the fines be higher? Does the department need to invest massively to counter illegal fishing in order to protect the resource?

[Colin Sproul]

There's a really simple answer to that question. The department needs to equally enforce the law, regardless of a fisher's identity. For the benefit of all stakeholders in the fishery, the department needs to seize the vessels that are engaged in the out-of-season fishing.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, that's very interesting.

In your region, some fishers who are probably experiencing difficulties. In Quebec, many are seeing their fishing potential decrease.

As we said earlier, some people see mackerel being sold on the market.

In fisheries, are we currently seeing any social and psychological consequences as a result of this somewhat dark aspect of fishery, illegal fishing?

[Colin Sproul]

I was really hoping to be asked that question today.

This summer, our members and fishermen across the maritime provinces were polled by Nanos, and the poll showed some really interesting things. I think one of the most important things it revealed was that 67% of harvesters in the Maritimes said that they view current DFO management as a threat to the future of their fisheries. That's a really shocking statistic, and I think it should be front and centre on the minister's desk—to help to overcome that problem.

The follow-on effect is that there's a lack of respect on the water for frontline DFO C and P staff, which is not their fault, and it makes their jobs really difficult. When they go aboard one of our members' boats—members who have just viewed the resource that their families depend on being fished in a totally unsustainable manner, and then they're attempting to abide by the law all the time.... It makes members not as willing to be cordial with frontline DFO staff, and I think that's really unfortunate. However, that lack of respect for the department and for conservation measures is being bred by the department, which is also evidencing a lack of respect for conservation to our members.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Sproul, I know that we've already covered quite a few questions, and I feel that you've given us some good information, so perhaps I won't go on for too long, and then I'll go to Mr. McIsaac.

One thing I'm trying to understand.... I know it's a very complex issue, and I don't even want to try to pretend to understand all of the complexity and intricacies of the situation and what's happening in Nova Scotia, but we do know that we had a lot of learning—at least, that's the hope—that came from what occurred a few years ago with the Mi'kmaq in making sure there was communication around Mi'kmaq conservation principles, the knowledge that was being used by Mi'kmaq fishers. One thing that came up—at least, to my knowledge—was that there was a breakdown in communication, and that information wasn't being transferred appropriately to indigenous and non-indigenous fishers, which resulted in increased tensions.

I just want to highlight some of the things you brought up. You brought up that you're not seeing reports being collected. Could you speak a bit more about what information you're receiving from the DFO around the actual data and reports of what's happening on the water, and maybe as a follow-up to that, what you feel would be a good avenue to bring everybody to the table to have the same information, to see more collaborations? That's just a vital piece here in moving forward. Could you provide some comments on that?

[Colin Sproul]

I actually think it's central to resolution of the issue. It's something we have harped on to DFO for years. If we could understand what the nature of rights implementation would be so that we could relay that to our members, the integration would happen much more smoothly.

The answer to the first part of your question is nothing. We don't receive any information. We have been kept totally in the dark as the government has hidden behind the nation-to-nation process.

While we have great respect for the nation-to-nation process, there are other examples, such as that of the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization, of how the government engages in nation-to-nation processes and also has the industry represented at a table in a separate room. There's that mechanism for the government to share information with us and for us to provide our expertise to the government as well, but they refuse to do that.

More importantly, it's incumbent on the minister and on the government to create a place to bring first nations harvesters and non-indigenous harvesters back to the table again. Surely the responsibility falls to the government to find a way forward for all of us. We're eager to sit down at the table with our first nations partners. Ultimately, a lobster doesn't care who catches it. We all intend to share the ocean together profitably into the future. We really hope that the minister of the day can find a way to bring us back to the table together, because having everything happen in silos of secrecy has not been at all conducive to improving the situation.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

To clarify, Mr. Sproul, there have been no communications around creating such an opportunity to date.

[Colin Sproul]

There certainly has been communication about it from the industry to the department, but there's been no communication back.

I think the opportunity is still there. I know that all the fishery leaders in the Maritimes are ready to sit at that table.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you very much.

It's nice to see you again, Mr. McIsaac.

In previous meetings, we often heard the term “IUU” applied to illegal high seas fishing, often by foreign actors. I'm hearing a lot, of course, about the real implications for local fisheries, more on the domestic side of what we're seeing around illegal, unregulated and unreported fishing and how that plays into the black market. I'm wondering if you could expand a little on some of the examples you were providing and whether you're seeing the accountability mechanisms and people out there holding to account those who are participating in illegal, unregulated and unreported fishing.

[Jim McIsaac]

The use of the term really has come from the foreign fleets fishing in EEZs. EEZs were created in the 1970s. We had foreign fishing vessels fishing within sight of our coast up until 1977, and then some encroachments on that after 1977 as well.

We have this split jurisdiction between managing fisheries and managing processing and the markets. That creates a complicated kind of milieu in which to deal with some of the issues.

In the case of salmon, if DFO is managing the fishery and the fish are all over the market, what is the province supposed to do? Is it supposed to go out there and stop the sale of that fish, when it's not the one that is regulating the actual fishery? It's a really mixed bag here.

I would put the responsibility of the harvest onto DFO. Fishermen have been talking about the illegal fishing in the Fraser River for more than 30 years. A few years ago, when they were reporting, the department was confiscating something like 1,000 nets a year in the river. They're down to confiscating 200 or 300 now. When they reported 1,000, they said they were getting only about 10% of it. The number of fish, through legal fishing on the river, was lower than that in the days for the actual commercial fishery.

The entire system appears to be broken. We're heading to a place where we're not going to have legal commercial fisheries anymore because of the structure and the system that's been put in place.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less.