Fisheries Committee on Dec. 7th, 2023

[Dr. Minda Suchan]

We worked with them a few years ago to develop the analytics and pull in the right set of data to do what is needed. It turned operational in 2021.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Is there a number you can share with us on how many ships you've caught? Do you let DFO know, “Look, we suspect this ship is probably catching some fish illegally”? Is there a number you already have that you...?

[Dr. Minda Suchan]

I would probably leave it up to DFO to share that number with you.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay.

[Dr. Minda Suchan]

We certainly turn over the data and provide the analytics and reports. They are the ones who confirm or validate the information and data and take action beyond that.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay.

It's a long shot, but I'm going to ask you this question. Maybe you're aware of this. It's not about ships. It's actually about whales.

We have a situation in my region with the North Atlantic right whale. Since 2015, we've had their presence in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Each time there's a whale in a certain area, we close it to fishing, so we don't have any entanglement and dead whales.

Is there something in your satellite devices we can use to detect whales, not just boats?

[Dr. Minda Suchan]

Radar reflects very well off metal, but not so well off a whale. We do some whale detection using UAV technology for VTOL, but it's a very different type of technology from satellite. Radar satellites are very good at detecting objects on the water, not under the water.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay. Thanks for that.

How many pounds—I must use the word “tonnes” instead—do those illegal boats catch in a year? Do you have a number on that? Are there estimated numbers you guys can share with us?

[Dr. Minda Suchan]

I have only the number from the UN that talks about 20% of the 90 million tonnes captured per year. It's 20% of the over 90 million tonnes of fish caught globally each year. That is what is presumed to be captured illegally. That's a statistic from the United Nations.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Look, I'm going to read more about your company and what you're doing. It seems to be a great tool that we can use more and more. Thank you very much.

My next question is for Mr. King.

We had officials recently at our committee. We had DFO officials. We also had some CBSA officials. We haven't yet had the RCMP comment on the situation with elver fisheries in Nova Scotia.

Do you feel the DFO and CBSA officials responsible for checking what's leaving the country, in terms of fish, and that everything is legal—paperwork and everything...? Even the RCMP.... Do you think they did their job properly in the situation that occurred in Nova Scotia this past year?

[Stanley King]

The answer is a resounding no. I don't blame the CBSA officials so much, because they should be informed by DFO C and P on what to look for and at what time of year; they should sort of be tipped off so they can do their job more effectively. It is hard to differentiate a package of seafood of, say, lobsters versus elvers. Even if you put it through an X-ray machine, these guys aren't going to notice it.

DFO acknowledges that four and a half metric tons of elvers were fished illegally in 2023, and the real number—because that's only the quota that we have that was taken off the TAC—is probably closer to 25 metric tons. They all went through airports and flew out of this country to China.

I saw some of the testimony at the committee you're talking about, with the head of the CBSA. To say that they did not intercept one package, not one kilogram, of 25 metric tons coming through the airports, is scandalous. DFO won't do anything on the riverbanks; they won't do anything in the transports; they won't do anything in the chain of command; and they won't do anything when our natural resources—our dollars—are leaving the country. They step aside.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you, Mr. King and Mr. Cormier. Your time is up.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

We'll now move on to Madame Desbiens for six minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being with us. It takes courage to testify before this committee as part of the studies we're conducting.

Mr. Collin, do you think that Fisheries and Oceans Canada has scientific data showing that the waters of Chaleur Bay along the coast of New Brunswick are different from those on the Quebec side?

Do the waters of New Brunswick speak English and those of Quebec French?

Why are the laws different?

[Ghislain Collin]

I don't understand why. All of us fish for the same species, and we're all in Canada. You could say that the government has a double standard, since it's the same species in the same place. I can go and fish near New Brunswick, but if I go back to Quebec to land it, I'm subject to all these controls. That's good for protecting the resource, but we want that to apply to all Canadian fleets.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

What will this inequality lead to in the long run, and what does it show?

[Ghislain Collin]

First, it has resulted in a decline in the species. Second, we've seen our catches drop to shutdown level. Third, as a result of unreported fishing, there's a much bigger fishery than what was proposed. I've seen estimates of unreported catches too, and I can tell you they're far greater than the total allowable catches. As for resource preservation, that's unfortunate. We now have nothing to fish as a result, whereas we harvested the resource properly.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

What does that show, apart from the fact that Quebec has been put at a disadvantage? Is it a lack of fairness or a failure to listen on the department's part? We sense that you aren't being heard.

[Ghislain Collin]

It shows that there's no consideration for a small group of Quebec fishers.

It also shows that the government ultimately wants to have three big associations of fishers in Quebec and to have the smallest associations ultimately disappear so there's no more problem. That's what we think. It has destroyed our fishery by acting as it does, and as it has done in the past, and by closing its eyes to certain issues.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Would your viability be secured if you were granted compensation or offered an alternative solution for the fishery?

[Ghislain Collin]

That's the solution. We want to keep on fishing. The fishing industry is still devalued, but we're going to make every effort to persevere. Yes, we need alternative solutions.

We especially need to continue working with the scientists. It's not their fault that senior officials have never had the courage to enforce the actual regulations across Canada. The scientists have been deprived of data. We need to keep on working with them. We need data in order to reopen fishery, and I hope we'll soon be working with the scientists from Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Is the economy in your region based on your fishing?

Would businesses or towns therefore be at risk of shutting down because you're essentially being penalized for fishing in Quebec?

[Ghislain Collin]

Yes, that's exactly it. Government inaction has resulted in a lot of uncertainty in the fishing industry, as a result of which investment has declined. No one will invest in the fishery, to buy fishing nets, for example, without knowing what's going to happen.

The same is true in the processing industry. Businesses won't invest in machinery without knowing when our fishing operations will resume.

So we're caught in a vicious circle, and my sense is that the fact we've stopped fishing suits certain individuals just fine.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

You said that the fact you had stopped fishing would suit certain individuals just fine.

What would happen to the resource data if you stopped collecting it?

Will we be able to rely on something else? You were the only ones providing that data. However, now you're hardly ever on the water, for reasons we're unaware of, except that you are Quebeckers.

Does the fact that this data is no longer being collected mean that we'll have no more information to use in managing the resource's survival?