Evidence of meeting #92 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dfo.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:05 p.m.
Acting President, Canadian Committee for a Sustainable Eel Fishery Inc.
Absolutely, and they're not very happy about it.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Thank you very much.
For our folks from MDA, Ms. Suchan, are you aware of any successful outcomes as a result of the investment the current government has made in your technology?
12:05 p.m.
Vice President, Geointelligence Division, MDA
I hear anecdotally about different things that occur through our customers, through DFO, where they have been able to leverage the technology through various means—for example, for drug interdiction—and that certain illegal activities were able to be stopped because of our technology. It's more on an anecdotal basis than from a magic formula.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
I'm asking in terms of IUU fishing.
12:05 p.m.
Vice President, Geointelligence Division, MDA
In terms of IUU fishing as well, we do hear examples of successes, when they were able to board and to find illegal fishing activity, and they were able to confirm that. Our technology gave them data to successfully stop certain activities.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Thank you.
You're hearing a lot about the elver fishery right now. We've heard a lot about summer lobster fishing in Nova Scotia and suspicious IUU salmon fishing on the Fraser River. Has the Minister of Fisheries ever approached you about using your technology to combat homegrown IUU fishing?
12:05 p.m.
Vice President, Geointelligence Division, MDA
We do support some of the monitoring in the coastal regions, but I'm not sure how far inland and in what specific areas. Yes, we do try to also help domestically as well as overseas.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Could your technology be used in monitoring elver fishing at night?
12:05 p.m.
Vice President, Geointelligence Division, MDA
Certainly. It's all day, all night and in all weather that those kinds of images can be taken. I would say it would be a great opportunity for us to explore further with DFO to see how we could support it.
The way we take imagery and the modalities we have—in other words, the area of interest, the resolution and how small the objects are that we can detect—vary, depending on where we are geolocated, where we're looking and the types of modes available at the time we have across that area. We would probably have to work with DFO. I do think that's an interesting opportunity to explore further.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Are you telling me the minister hasn't contacted you to help them out in monitoring elver fishing or summer lobster fishing in Nova Scotia, or salmon fishing on the Fraser River?
12:05 p.m.
Vice President, Geointelligence Division, MDA
I can't speak to that, specifically. They could have asked in other ways to my team. I would have to go back and double-check. I'm not aware of that specifically, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been investigated.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I don't know if Mr. King's appendix has been circulated. I have it right here, but it was just handed to me by our staff. Make sure that gets admitted for evidence in this study.
Thank you.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Mel Arnold
We're moving on now to Mr. Kelloway for five minutes, please.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Today I think we've had a really good, candid conversation.
I want to speak to elver for a moment. I can't add anything to what other parliamentarians have said, and you have said, Mr. King, in terms of the severity of the issue from a safety, security and economic perspective. It's been clearly laid out, and you've done that quite well.
I want to go to solutions, and you've highlighted many of them. Before I do that, I want to speak to the fact that, clearly, DFO has a fundamental role to play here. That goes without question. I also think, and we've seen this in other testimony, that CBSA has a role to play here, as, I dare say, does the RCMP. I think we need to have the RCMP come to this committee. I believe we've asked, but I think we need to ask again. I think it's really important. We don't direct the RCMP to do the work. At the same point, we need to have it here to speak to this really fundamental issue of what's happening in Atlantic Canada, in particular New Brunswick and Nova Scotia.
I want to go to an example that's often brought up by folks in the elver industry around following the best practice of Maine. You spoke of traceability. I wonder not only if you can unpack the traceability for a second, but also if you can talk about other things Maine has done to mitigate.... They haven't completely squashed illegal poachers. I'm wondering if you can speak to the Maine example and what the lessons are that we could learn, in particular in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia.
12:10 p.m.
Acting President, Canadian Committee for a Sustainable Eel Fishery Inc.
Thanks for the question, Mr. Kelloway, and thank you for your interest in the topic. We know you've been interested previously, and we appreciate that.
Maine used to be way behind the Canadian system. We were really leaders in this fishery, and then it blew our doors off. It has hopscotched us, and now we're way behind it.
They have implemented a few different ways to limit illegal harvesting. One is a robust traceability system, using swipe cards. We know, from the time the fish are caught at the river, when they're swiped in, who they're sold to and who buys them again. Often, there are a few buyers before they're exported. The traceability issue, the chain of custody, is always transparent. That does help identify illegally harvested fish.
Maine has also done something interesting. It has partnered with a lot of first nations and made it a group problem. Everybody wants this fishery to run smoothly, because it benefits everybody. It benefits the fishers and the communities, whether it's an indigenous community or a non-indigenous community. It benefits the government's bottom line. It's a resource that we can take advantage of—that's the best way I can put it—and utilize. We can take care of it, and it can fund a lot of good stuff.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
In terms of the coming year and understanding that the Maine example wasn't built overnight—it took years to develop; it was incremental—what are some of the first things...? In three or four months, we're back into the elver fishery. What are some things you want to see? Understanding that you brought up that there is a study, and I believe you mentioned that you haven't been.... I'm not sure if you said that you aren't actively involved in the study or that you haven't been asked to be part of the study or that you have been asked but it hasn't been consistent. However, let's go to what you want to see in what we'll call the first phase. The DFO has said that it is planning regulation changes and things of that nature, but what do you want to see, first and foremost, as an elver fisher and someone who represents so many people in our communities?
12:10 p.m.
Acting President, Canadian Committee for a Sustainable Eel Fishery Inc.
We've been asking the DFO for a traceability system for 10 years. That's 10 full years of asking repeatedly if we can please have a traceability system, so that is first and foremost. We have just now initiated an industry-funded pilot project that we hope will get off the ground, but again, that's our idea. We've put this forward; the DFO has really done nothing.
To jump back to what you said about the study, that's an industry-funded study. We run the study. We designed the study. We give the DFO the data to analyze, but that study doesn't run without us. It was cancelled this year and cancelled in 2020 as well, which cost us incredibly valuable data. The DFO head scientist has said that that's a real punch to the gut of this study.
For this upcoming season, we need a traceability system.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Mel Arnold
Thank you.
Mr. Kelloway, your time is up.
We'll go back to Mr. Perkins for five minutes, please.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. King, I'd like to talk about solutions. We've talked a lot about enforcement. I believe that if you start arresting people for poaching, river by river, you'll soon see an end to it. In terms of enforcement, one of the things I think your organization has asked the DFO quite a bit to start putting in place is a traceability program for elvers. Could you explain how that would work?
12:15 p.m.
Acting President, Canadian Committee for a Sustainable Eel Fishery Inc.
Yes. It's no silver bullet. That's what I want to express to this committee: that it is no silver bullet. It will help a bit to separate illegally harvested eels from legally harvested eels in more of an airport setting or in transit. We will be able to say, “Oh, you have elvers in this shipment. You have elvers in this truck. Let's see your chain of custody.” That's what a traceability system will do.
It is not the be-all and end-all. We need enforcement more than anything, which is easier said than done. We also need increased fines. The last fine I saw in the paper last month was for $500 for poaching elvers. You have to consider that they can go out and make $10,000, $15,000, $20,000 in a single night—sometimes more. Who wouldn't pay $500 gladly if they were caught and convicted? We need real penalties.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
On that conviction.... You mentioned that there was one individual—more than one, in fact—advertising on Kijiji and other places about various parking lots around Halifax where they would be willing to buy illegally caught eels at a set price. I think I even read one of them where he was offering tacos, too, if you came to sell to him. If I were advertising on Kijiji that I could go to the Home Depot parking lot and that I was selling cocaine at a discount—and that, by the way, if you buy a certain amount, I'll give you some tacos—do you think the police would allow me to do that for very long?
12:15 p.m.
Acting President, Canadian Committee for a Sustainable Eel Fishery Inc.
I think it's an apt analogy, and I certainly hope not. I don't see the difference; they're both commodities.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I'll move to another subject. For the last two years, I believe, the DFO has expropriated the licence-holder quota without compensation. It's done it for the purpose of getting more first nations access, which is a legitimate public policy desire that we have with regard to all fisheries. However, the DFO has an extensive willing buyer-willing seller program, with a lot of taxpayer resources. I understand that it engaged in the last two years—maybe not the last year but certainly two years ago—in a discussion with elver licence-holders about purchasing and compensating, about the willing buyer-willing seller concept. Elver licence-holders had independent third party evaluations done as part of that process, yet the DFO didn't buy any of the licences. It just expropriated them. Why was the DFO unwilling to accept—and maybe this is unfair—the independent study that you had done? Maybe you could explain a bit about that.
12:15 p.m.
Acting President, Canadian Committee for a Sustainable Eel Fishery Inc.
You're absolutely right.
Two years ago, in order to generate more first nations access, they asked for proposals to voluntarily surrender elver quotas under a willing buyer-willing seller model, which has been the government's stated path forward on how to generate more first nations access. All the licence-holders submitted proposals in good faith. We want the fishery to work. We did an independent market analysis.
There was a resounding “no” from DFO. Actually, they didn't even respond. They waited for a whole year before they even responded to us and said, “No, it's too expensive. We'll ask you again to lower your price, please. We'll ask again in a few weeks.” We all waited for a second round of proposals, but they never came. They said, “No, we're going to pull the plug on that. We're not going to bother. We're just going to expropriate it.” That's exactly what they did.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Did DFO engage in any consultation with you or the licence-holders about what they may or may not do? I think that was a temporary transfer. That's the way they do it for lobster. It's a temporary licence that goes on for years. Has DFO approached you about this coming season and how much they are going to expropriate from legal licence-holders?