Fisheries Committee on Dec. 12th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Allen.

We will now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Ms. Sonnenberg, are you aware of any IUU fishing in fisheries pursued by your members?

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

I'm assuming you're talking about more locally.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Yes, say, in the Bay of Fundy.

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

In the Bay of Fundy, yes, I am aware of fishing that goes on. I'm not going to say it's necessarily by my members, but it's certainly by people in our communities around the Bay of Fundy.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I heard you say that enforcement needs to be consistent for all harvesters. Are there any groups of harvesters or individual harvesters who are not having the law enforced upon them?

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

I think sometimes it's a lack of it, Mr. Small, that leads us to have issues. Sometimes we're seeing that it's under-resourced, and there's the inability to get enough officers on the water to properly.... It's not just on the water—it's on the wharf as well—but certainly on the water is where you start.

That presence is a huge deterrent. Boarding a vessel and looking around is a huge deterrent, and we need more of it. Many of the organizations we represent at the federation ask continually for more of it.

I would say it would not necessarily be consistent, although we do know of examples. We heard Mr. Allen speak of it this afternoon, where sometimes there is a blind eye turned to certain things, or sometimes charges are.... I think the enforcement officers hope to lay charges, and then they are told not to, in terms of some of the indigenous fishing, and we've seen that in a variety of examples.

It has to be consistent for all parties, and we need enough deterrents to make people want to be in compliance.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Ms. Sonnenberg, who do you think would be giving that direction to C and P?

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

I think sometimes it comes from the fact of building a case that is going to withstand the rigours of our judicial system. That is some of the feedback we get.

I can't really speak to who it is or why, but some of the rumblings we've heard are that it has to be able to stand up to that scrutiny inside the judicial system, and oftentimes it won't.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Are you confident that that's leading to IUU fishing in the Maritimes?

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

I am confident that it's part of it. It's not all of it. Certainly sometimes it's part of it, and then that leads to other sectors of the fishery thinking it's okay to just have a free-for-all.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

This is for Mr. Allen. This past summer there was suspected illegal fishing in St. Marys Bay, in area 34, where you have members. Do you know if the minister was made aware of these suspicions?

[Carl Allen]

I would like to think that the minister at the time was made aware. I know the department itself was very aware of that specific issue. The department was even made very aware prior to the incident in St. Marys Bay that this potential was there, because, like I said in one of my earlier statements on that, the membership of my local 9 there, which represents that area, had been bringing this issue up for years, and this continued to build.

I think the department was forewarned that there was a potential for a powder keg, as we called it, for lack of a better term, and that something might happen. I think for anybody in the department to say, after that incident at St. Marys Bay, that they didn't see that coming.... They were warned at a very high level that something was going to happen if they didn't step in to try to rein this back a bit. The scale at which that fishery was taking place in those summer months.... Again, we really don't know, but we have an idea, and I can put a lower threshold and an upper threshold, and it's quite a big range. It's not insignificant.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Allen, are you aware of any other bays or areas around the Maritimes where similar things are taking place or similar suspicions are held that there's IUU fishing for lobster?

[Carl Allen]

Yes. It's in my own backyard, and this is why I spoke to the two biggest first nations in eastern New Brunswick, Elsipogtog and Esgenoopetitj. Both have FSC fisheries that take place out of the season. Elsipogtog takes place in May to July; for our season, they fish that in August to October. Again, there's a lot of speculation. They're allowed an allocation, but there have been lots of instances where they've watched harvesters come in and weigh off one box of fish, and four boxes have gone into a vehicle. If nobody's there to even verify whether those other four boxes are empty or not, again, the speculation takes over. I think that's the dangerous part in all of this. If we don't have a real handle on what the numbers are, we can speculate on its being way worse than it may be. I think we need to have a clear grasp of what those numbers are for that clarity. If that clarity is not there, then danger fills the void.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Allen.

We'll go to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes or less, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

I have two short questions, and then I'm going to give my time to MP Kelloway.

The first question is for Ms. Sonnenberg.

You're a long-time, credible voice for the fishery in your part of Atlantic Canada. We've heard a number of witnesses reference dockside monitoring as it relates specifically to lobster, so I'll go there. What are your views, Ms. Sonnenberg? Is it a solution?

Be quick, please.

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

I would say it could be used as one, but I don't believe it will be met very warmly by the industry until we have a reason to think—in a fishery that's done through effort controls—that it's going to make a difference.

I'm involved with a fishery in an international zone called the “grey zone”, off the back side of Grand Manan, between Maine and New Brunswick. We have dockside monitoring in the lobster fishery. We do it for the purpose of having a clear understanding of what we've landed, so that we can demonstrate at a future time—in a world court, if we were ever put to the test as a country—what that zone means. It's another burden, really, for the industry, and I think that's what we have to be cognizant of, as I said in the presentation. The rules that are made to combat this problem need to be very well thought out in concert with the industry, so we're not putting extra layers on top.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Okay, so we have some work to do there, if it moves in that direction.

Thank you for your point.

Mr. MacPherson, when you were here before—and I didn't get back to you—we were talking about DFO-issued tags for lobster traps and gear. Not everyone follows those....

Could you elaborate briefly on what is working and what's not?

[Ian MacPherson, Board Member, Canadian Independent Fish Harvesters Federation]

Yes. I think we need to get back to audits of the tag distributors and make sure they are following all the proper protocols. We need to get back to standardized colours for an appropriate fishery and what those tags will be for a replacement fishery.

I think it needs to be investigated. When a tag supplier orders tags on their own that aren't authorized by DFO, there should be some consequences.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Mr. Kelloway.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's great to have the witnesses here...and the great questions around the table.

I have a couple of questions. I'll make them brief, because I don't think I have a lot of time.

Ms. Sonnenberg, you mentioned that CRA has a role to play. It could be doing more. I think you referenced that. I was wondering whether you could go into a bit of detail as to what that is specifically.

Also, we talked about resources around this table today. We talked about C and P. I think it's absolutely important that we strategically put investments into the right place.

If you had the magic pen tomorrow, where would you put the most immediate resources, in terms of funding C and P and something else?

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

I will take the last question first, and then we'll go back to the other one.

I think C and P needs to have more resources. It starts there. Without them being well resourced, we're never going to get to the root of the problem. Having good presence on the water, sound and reliable vessels on the water.... All of that is super important in dealing with IUU.

That's the first question. If I had a pen, I would start there. I truly believe in C and P. They are the face of the department, and they have an opportunity to keep everybody in check.

As far as—

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

It's more investment and no cuts—got it.

Go on to the next one, please.