Fisheries Committee on Feb. 6th, 2024

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

They could have had a fleet of DFO people. Since 2019—just since 2019—DFO's budget has increased by 25%, and it has doubled from $2 billion to over $4 billion since 2016, but they haven't put any more money in here.

I do know that the HR department at DFO has grown from 400 to 833, so there have been over 400 people put into that. Do you know how many enforcement people—because enforcement is a key part of all of this too—have been added to DFO in that time? Seven.

It doesn't seem to me like the emphasis is on the right syllable for DFO if your fundamental mandate is to manage the conservation and the sustainable commercial fisheries for our country.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

To your point, two important aspects of this audit and our previous audit are that, one, we didn't see enough resources going into the implementation of the monitoring policy that was produced in 2019, and that's set out in exhibit 9.2. Then, with respect to enforcement, in our audit from the previous year, in 2022, “Protecting Aquatic Species at Risk”, we do have a section there on enforcement. We would agree with you that the resources needed in enforcement were not there. That's set out in exhibit 7.11 of our report 7 from 2022. We're happy to give a copy of that to the committee as well.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

I did an Order Paper question, as it's called here in the House of Commons, which asked for how many C and P officers existed from those years on. I was shocked to learn that there's a whole 156 enforcement people for all of Canada in DFO, while there are 833 people in HR.

Again, it seems to me that if you don't know what the catch data is, if you have inadequate science—which was a unanimous report by this committee—and if you don't put money into enforcement, you can't actually ensure that we have the sustainability of our stocks. Without policing, you don't have certainty of data.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I would agree completely. The science, the catch data and the enforcement are all integral parts of the sustainable management of a fishery. These are all procedural measures, so we would also want to look at the results: How have things gone?

The cod example is well known to everyone, but with regard to our “Protecting Aquatic Species at Risk” report, let us also think about how many fish species in Canada have become extinct, extirpated, endangered, threatened or of special concern. It's over 200 species.

Fisheries is a federal concern. They have the ability to manage harvests and to address fish habitat degradation and pollution of fisheries waters, yet we see that almost a quarter of all the species at risk in Canada are fish species. From a results point of view, it is troubling.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you, Mr. DeMarco. I'll have to stop you there and move on to our next member, Mr. Kelloway, who is online.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses. There are some really great questions today.

I'm going to start with the commissioner.

Adequate data on fish stocks is essential to maintaining healthy fish populations. I think everyone in the room would agree with that. Right now, DFO seems to be encouraging ELOGS for some fisheries. Do you think that bringing new technologies like ELOGS into the fishery industry will assist in the data collection for DFO? That's question one.

Also, are there other technologies that you recommend DFO implement to ensure more accurate data collection?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

You're getting at the issue of modernization of their system, the information management system.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

That's correct.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

This is the second time around for us in recommending improvements in that regard. We have our 2023 report on that, and also a 2016 report.

We agree with you on modernizing their system, and not only modernizing it but integrating it. Recall the answer to the question from Member Desbiens about the inconsistencies in approaches and so on. It's not just a matter of modernizing it; it's also about integrating the systems to eliminate those inconsistencies and also achieve economies of scale and have a more integrated and consistent approach to sustainable management.

In terms of specific areas, I can turn to Monsieur Normand to more directly address that aspect of the question, because I didn't get into that level of specificity.

[David Normand]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, in our audit, we looked at the overall system for managing catch data, and we found that there were parts of a system in place in Newfoundland that were available, but that for fish catch information, largely the systems were still at the inception stage.

For part of this, I think, electronic logs have been considered since 2003 to accelerate the logging of data, etc., as well as to ensure quality, because automating this area would help. However, in our audit we found that electronic logs were still at the very beginning, in the inception stage. In their response to our recommendation, the department indicated that they wish to pursue this avenue.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to work on doing some integration here. I'm going to stay on the ELOGS theme, so I want to go to officials for a second.

Other officials recently mentioned in a previous committee meeting that not all ELOGS work perfectly for different fisheries. I am wondering if you could elaborate on why different types of ELOGS are needed now and how that may pose challenges to the modernization efforts that we were just talking about in the first question.

[Jennifer Mooney, Director, National Licensing Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Perhaps I can answer this question.

With respect to ELOGS, yes, we have made quite a bit of progress since the commissioner's report was finalized at the end of December. We have set out the technical specifications for all fisheries across the country for those applications to be developed, and they are based on the current paper logbook information that is already collected. We're continuing to advance in that regard.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I'll stay with the officials for a second and move away from ELOGS.

The DFO is taking many steps to ensure that Canada meets its environmental targets, including through its “30 by 30” initiative, which will convert, as we all know, 30% of Canada's oceans into conservation areas.

I'm wondering, officials, if you could tell us how actions like the 30 by 30 plan help Canada to meet environmental targets while protecting fish stock?

[Brent Napier]

I can certainly answer from the enforcement perspective, and I will integrate two answers with regard to the technology.

We've been using quite a bit of satellite technology—our dark vessel detection system, which we've had some really good success with—especially in the international fora and bringing those things back to Canada. Some of these remote areas.... With regard to the 30 by 30 plan, you'd be looking at more vulnerable areas in the north where there are no traditional fisheries and at having to get eyes on those areas to ensure that they're not being overfished, protecting those valuable areas to ensure that new stocks that are developing are properly managed and that information is available to make sound decisions.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair? Is that it?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

You have five seconds. You cut it pretty close.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

That's fine. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.

We'll move on now to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Normand, I want to pick up on the discussion about the implementation of the monitoring system.

You said earlier that some sort of monitoring system was in the works back in 2003 but that it still wasn't up and running.

What percentage of the system is up and running, according to your estimates?

The process to implement the system started in 2003. It's been 20 years.

[David Normand]

Thank you for your question.

In 1999, actually, our office conducted an audit on two specific fish stocks, and as part of that audit, we also identified problems with system integration.

We found the same thing in 2016, when we identified a major lack of system integration.

Following that, we took a closer look at two aspects of the information systems as part of our audit. One was the quota management component, which was in place in five of the six regions. As I explained earlier, with respect to data collection, so the information management system, the department was in the process of implementing the system in the eastern provinces. No part of the system was actually in place.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

That means no system is fully up and running. Is that right?

[David Normand]

That's exactly right. That is one of DFO's challenges.

The commissioner mentioned in his opening remarks that some of the findings we made in 2016 were still relevant. That is true for these systems, which represent—

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

If I understand correctly, that is the basis on which DFO currently makes its decisions. Is that right?

[David Normand]

That's absolutely correct.

In terms of accessing and compiling the data to have a complete picture of the situation, we had a pretty difficult time getting the answers, precisely because the data were scattered all over the place. That comes back to what we were talking about earlier, the lack of system integration.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Normand.