Fisheries Committee on Feb. 6th, 2024

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

I'll move to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you. I was hoping you were going to say five.

The first question I'm going to ask is to Mr. DeMarco.

We're hearing from many of those on the water a discrepancy between the data, or lack of data, that's being collected, the decisions that are being made, and what they're seeing on the water. That goes from both ends.

There are those who are saying there are unfair cuts being made that are impacting their livelihoods. On the other side, people are saying there's a sustainability risk to the species and there's not enough being done.

Can you speak to how that interconnects to what we're talking about today? Do you think that the results that you're telling us today may play a part in some of that disconnect between the observations on the water and the decisions that are being made?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We've been talking mainly about the importance of good data and reliable data—dependable and timely data—for decisions to sustainably manage a fishery. As you point out, having data that's reliable and dependable also gets better buy-in from regulated communities. They're more confident in the decisions of the department and more likely to be in agreement with the quotas that are set, and so on.

The data has an impact on both the substantive decisions and also the buy-in or the support that the communities have for those decisions. That's another reason that we should have better data: so that the regulated communities feel more confident in the regulator.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'll try to put a quick question to Mr. Napier or Mr. Williams.

Could you provide an update on what's happening? We're hearing from witnesses about all the steps that are happening around this technology, but the evidence is clearly showing us that the required technology is not in place. Could you provide me some quick insights on what's happening, and why we're not seeing those actions taken?

[Brent Napier]

Yes. The technology is slow to advance, but we're making great strides. We're looking at increasing technology in our existing collection. I see observers looking at hand-held modules that can provide information in a more timely way. They can collect it and there are fewer mistakes. Data quality is improved. We have also had experience with new technologies, like electronic monitoring, on the west coast for some time now.

Learning from that and applying that on the east coast, our observer program is stretched. We have only nine designated companies. We have only 100 observers. You heard that about 130 different fisheries require at-sea observers, so we're going to have to use those technologies to support that collection of information.

We also have officers on the ground. In fact, we have 550 frontline officers who are available to collect information. They can monitor catch. They can go aboard and verify compliance, so if harvesters are collecting as they should and we're aboard in real time, we're confirming that. The data at the end of it will not necessarily be assured, but it will be a better quality than you would expect otherwise.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you, Mr. Napier. That's additional time for you, actually.

We'll move on now to the next round with Mr. Bragdon. You have five minutes, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the guests and to those who bear witness here today. Thank you so much for being here.

I have just one question and then I'll yield to my friend Mr. Small.

Obviously, we've had a couple of reports come out, one in 2016 and one in 2020. There was a lot of talk about planning to plan, and that they were planning a meeting to plan. They were going to plan to have a plan that was going to implement a plan that was going to really resolve in a great plan. Hopefully, at the end of the planning of the plan, we would start to get results that would be reported back to the committee about how the plan was going.

I'd like to ask all of you this question. In your estimation, how far along in the trajectory of these plans have we come since they started and initiated the original planning to plan?

I'll start with you, Mr. DeMarco.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I'm glad I brought the action plan from our 2016 audit with me, because I'm growing a little bit frustrated too.

If you look at the responses to our 2016 report, there's reason for optimism. There are commitments to do something. If you look at the responses to the audit from this past fall, there are strong timelines, and so on. What I'd like to see, though, is implementation on the ground, or in this case in the ocean and lakes, and not just good intentions but good actions.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. DeMarco.

Mr. Napier, if you want, you can speak on behalf of the department. Obviously it's across the board that so much talk has gone into plans, plans about plans and plans around plans, with not a lot of action and concrete steps that produce results. Our fish harvesters and those communities that rely on the fisheries are looking for concrete steps and actions that can ensure the safety and the future of their industries.

Can you report where we're at concerning action versus plans?

[Brent Napier]

We have developed an action plan. All kidding aside, the department remains committed to delivering on actions, although from 2016 to 2023 it might not be evident that work has been produced on the national verification strategy. One of the pieces that was of concern to the auditor in 2016 was conflict of interest. We've done an interim protocol. We've moved the bar. We've started to advance on some of these things.

Much of this takes a lot of consultation. Much of this includes a COVID break in there. There were two years when, for example, the at-sea observer program did not function. I don't mean to use that as an excuse and I know that it had impacts on many, but it is a viable excuse in terms of changing gears and ensuring safety in those industries.

What we're doing, too, is supporting some of those third party monitors with harassment protection. Recruitment and retention are critical in those industries, and it's been very challenging to bring people in. We've had to pivot on some of our initial plans to address some of these concrete issues.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Small,

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Bragdon.

I'll address this question to Mr. DeMarco here.

Mr. DeMarco, if catch data is missing and stock assessments are incomplete, can this impact the eco-certification of fisheries? If so, what would be the impact?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Eco-certification isn't something that we looked at, but certification does rely on good-quality data in the same way that sustainable management decisions require good-quality data.

I'm afraid that I can't give you any more detail than that in terms of certifications for sustainable fisheries and so on in the marketplace.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Can someone from the department answer, maybe Mr. Napier?

[Todd Williams]

I can speak to that, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Go ahead, Mr. Williams.

[Todd Williams]

Thank you very much.

As the commissioner just noted, certainly eco-certification schemes such as MSC—the Marine Stewardship Council—and others do rely on science data, catch data. That's very important. It's part of their certification process. We work with them very closely and work with industry very closely to try to address any gaps if they are seeking certification or seeking to retain certification.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

We've had some stakeholders, Mr. Williams, who have approached us directly with big concerns, especially with Greenland halibut in the north, because of the lack of trawl surveys, but if some of these eco-certification groups knew that your catch data is four years behind, I don't think they'd be all that pleased. What do you think on northern cod, for example?

[Todd Williams]

With respect to northern cod, the 2J3KL science assessment is coming up on that, but we do know, at least based on an assessment last year, that it appears that we might be able to have a commercial fishery for that stock. We'd be working with industry to develop the monitoring requirements for it. If there is a certification question for that, we will work with industry to ensure that they have the information that they need to seek certification.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you, Mr. Williams.

We'll move on to Mr. Cormier now for five minutes, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You have done a wonderful job so far. No complaints here.

Mr. DeMarco, thank you for joining us today.

I'll address some of the concerns raised by my colleague, Caroline Desbiens. We just heard the announcement regarding the reopening of the redfish fishery, which has been closed for the past 30 years. It's happening right here, in front of me, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. I have many concerns about this. However, I want to acknowledge the tremendous work done by Minister Lebouthillier to reopen this fishery.

I read your report and I also heard what you said today about the lack of data, for example. Given the opening of this fishery, which unfortunately closed 30 years ago, I wonder what steps will be taken to make it sustainable and beneficial to communities. These are my concerns. As you know, the new Fisheries Act clearly states that the fishery must benefit our communities.

I'm deeply concerned about the fact that large vessels will be coming into the Gulf of St. Lawrence. I would like your opinion on this. I know that, in your report, you talk at length about sustainable fishing and community benefits.

Are we on the right path? I know that many discussions are under way and that no decision has been made yet. However, if we want the redfish fishery to last for a long time, shouldn't we make sure that the opening of this fishery will benefit communities, not big companies?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We haven't analyzed the differences between large fishing vessels and other vessels. However, I can tell you that we have the same goal. We want to make sure that the systems will keep the fisheries sustainable. The department has the same goal. We don't want to see fisheries constantly opening and closing.

Can I be sure that this fishery will be managed sustainably? No. For the reasons provided in our report, the department's current data isn't reliable enough. If implemented, our recommendations will make the fishery more sustainable. However, I won't know for sure until I see the results in the sea and lakes.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay.

I wanted to talk about the relationship between redfish and shrimp. Since 2016, redfish stocks have soared in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. We know that redfish prey on shrimp. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans has been saying since 2016 that something must be done about the growth of redfish stocks in the St. Lawrence. This year, shrimp quotas have dropped significantly. I don't mean to sound alarmist, but I predict a shrimp moratorium in the next few years.

Do you think that Fisheries and Oceans Canada has managed the shrimp population effectively over the past four or five years, despite knowing that redfish, whose stocks are soaring, prey on shrimp?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We haven't conducted an in‑depth analysis of specific species. However, the two species in question will indeed pose a challenge, according to current data. Things will become even more difficult in light of climate change and its impact on ocean temperature. The department will face many challenges when it comes to ensuring sustainable management. The department must determine what steps to take.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you.