Evidence of meeting #98 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was enforcement.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Okay.
In terms of the Maine example, the state of Maine, we're looking at best practices on how to manage the elver fishery. We need enforcement put in place for people to be safe, those who are licence-holders and community members who are just living there. Can you distill to me very quickly the Maine approach? Are we seriously looking at something similar to that in terms of—obviously not for this year—next year?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
I'm going to have to ask for that to be submitted in writing, because you used up the 45 seconds asking your question.
We'll go to Madame Desbiens now for six minutes or less, please.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm glad to see you back in your chair.
I also thank the witnesses for being with us, and our colleagues for proposing this study.
I was made aware of this situation almost two years ago already. The people we met on that occasion were deeply affected by what was happening. Some thirty years previously, they had developed this elver market, which is, my goodness, little known, and worked hard to try and build it up, eventually succeeding in making it a somewhat lucrative business. In the end, however, they came to tell us that they couldn't fish any more, because they were afraid to. Indeed, it's a fishery that takes place at night, but they could no longer approach the area because they were being threatened and intimidated.
So we're talking about people who have set up an important initiative. As anyone in business knows, this involves personal effort and, often, financial risk. These people are now grappling with that situation.
What's more important in this context: granting licences, finding a way to remove this tension, or increasing security as much as possible? Are all these answers right? I put this question to all the witnesses.
Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The minister's announcement today was made because we see that the tools we have used to date are no longer successful in ensuring the conservation of the species, or public safety.
There are three areas in which we are making changes.
First, there's the allocation for first nations. That's something they've been asking for. We've made changes to that over the last couple of years and we need to continue to consult with first nations on their participation in this fishery.
Secondly, there's regulatory control of the catch. Currently, the department only has the right to regulate what happens on the rivers, that is to say the fishery itself. However, we don't have the authority to intervene in the subsequent trade of these catches. So, if we see something, but we can't determine where it came from, it's difficult to intervene. Regulations covering the entire value chain are therefore very important, and would make it possible to monitor the position of elvers throughout the value chain, right up to export. We are working very hard on this point.
Thirdly, there's fisheries management. A traceability system would enable the department to have more data and information on catches and what's going on, in order to better protect the resource.
We're moving forward on all three fronts at the same time.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
I imagine it's laborious, which I understand. Do you have a timeline? On the one hand, predictability is important. On the other, it's an urgent matter, given that people's safety is at stake.
Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Regulatory changes are the ones that take the longest, because there are certain steps to follow and we can't skip them. There has to be, for instance, an analysis of the impact of the new regulations. However, we have made a lot of progress in the development of regulations. Returning to Mr. Kelloway's question, we have taken inspiration from the State of Maine's regulatory model. We've already reached the stage of public consultation on the regulations.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Are first nations invited to these consultations? I imagine so.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Mr. Burns, can you elaborate on the nature of the offences reported? How serious is the threat to safety?
Adam Burns Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We see cases of unauthorized fishing, that is, people fishing without a licence from the department. That is the main offence we see and want to eliminate.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you.
We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Because I can't help myself, I have to start by highlighting how distraught I am by my colleague's behaviour at the beginning of this meeting. This is a pattern of behaviour that we've seen from this member, and from others within the same party, when it's felt that name-calling, yelling and trying to get good clips are effective ways to move forward.
I believe there are other ways to express anger while remaining professional and respectful with one another. Yelling does not provide a safe working environment, particularly as it relates to translators.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Mr. Chair, yes, I have a point of order. I think the member should get on with the questioning.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
We have these witnesses here, and this is irrelevant.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
I shut off the time when I entertained the point of order.
I will let Mr. Small know that the six minutes are yours to use as you please. You can give a speech about what you baked over the weekend or what you did for the weekend. It's your time, and your time to use.
Continue, Ms. Barron.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
I look forward to that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
As I was saying, Mr. Chair, unfortunately, the behaviour of my colleague resulted in an unsafe working environment for both our peers and the staff—in particular, the translators who have to listen to the yelling and name-calling through the microphones. I will please ask my colleague, and colleagues, to perhaps take a breath when they are feeling angry, particularly without full information, and reflect on how we can communicate in a more respectful manner.
With that, thank you for allowing me to say that within the time I've been allotted.
I would like some clarification, please, Ms. Gibbons. I'm trying to understand. In particular, there was a letter sent to licence-holders, and the very first paragraph in the letter says, “I am writing to inform you of my intention not to renew any elver licences for the 2024 season”. The statement that came out by DFO, however, states that there are consultations happening.
From my perspective, these two conflict with one another. Can you please clarify?
Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The letter indicates a clear intention of concerns and the possibility of not opening the fishery, not issuing the licences for this year, but it does state later that the minister seeks comments from the licence-holders; that if there are comments, to have those within the next 10 days; and that she will then take into account the information she receives during that comment period before making a final decision.
It is clear that this is an intention, based on the perspectives of the moment and the factors that are outlined in the letter, but the final decision will not be made until the minister receives comments from the licence-holders on the impacts on them.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you for clarifying, Ms. Gibbons.
With respect, can you...? The wording in the very first sentence was, “I am writing to inform you of my intention not to renew any elver licences”. If you were an elver licence-holder, how would you interpret that very first sentence? I know that if I were an elver licence-holder, I don't know that I'd even read the rest of it. I would just immediately assume, “Well, I guess the season's closed. They've made the decision.”
Can you perhaps speak to the decision by the minister to have this as the very first sentence in the letter to the licence-holders, and perhaps reflect on how this may be shutting down the conversation, or the consultation as you're referring to it, before it's even begun?
Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The framing of the intention in that way is intended to provide clarity on what the thinking is. Providing a very specific perspective—here is what I'm thinking now—while remaining open to perspectives does give people something very clear that they can provide comments on.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you.
My colleague Ms. Desbiens mentioned first nations. Can you please share with me how first nation rights to a moderate livelihood play into these decisions? What consultation has been happening alongside first nations?
Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We have had extensive discussions in recent months with first nations on various aspects of the fishery and the three streams of work that I referred to.
Of course, the first one is their interest in having a greater share of the fishery, so the allocation of the fisheries. There have been discussions on that. The second stream is the regulations. We have had discussions with them on our intention to develop and bring in new regulations on the full supply chain and possession, requiring a licence to possess elver all along the supply chain, essentially. There have been discussions with them on that as well. On the final stream of work, the management of the fisheries, certainly we've had discussions with them on that as well.
They are fully involved in all areas of thinking on the new tools and approaches that we need to manage this fishery.