Fisheries Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We will be issuing a press release today to say that there will be consultations for the upcoming season. I think people understand the government's goal of reconciliation with indigenous peoples; we've been talking about it for a number of years. I think even non-indigenous commercial fishers in any other fishery also understand that there are different concerns about the fishery that need to be discussed.

Once again, we're talking about consultations. But when it comes to consultation, especially with first nations, it's often said that it has to be nation-to-nation. And yet, some groups find themselves outside these discussions. Therefore, are these consultations going to be done with all groups at the same time, or only with one group at a time, like the first nations, the commercial fishers, and so on?

Couldn't we, for once, get everyone in a room and talk together? That's what the word “reconcile” means to me. Is this something you've been thinking of doing, that is to say, getting all these groups together in the same room to discuss the future of this fishery, as well as all the other fisheries that cause a bit of trouble regarding reconciliation with first nations?

[Annette Gibbons]

You mentioned the concept of nation-to-nation. It's certainly paramount in discussions with indigenous peoples about their rights. The federal government will respect them by conducting negotiations and consultations with them.

In parallel, what we do with them has repercussions on other people with whom we obviously consult, as you mentioned.

In addition to all that, we recognize that there is room for dialogue between the three parties or that there is information to share about what we're doing with indigenous peoples. Whether we have discussions with other groups that are affected or have an interest in this, we certainly want to facilitate those dialogues too.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

For consultations on the elver fishery, are you going to try to get indigenous groups and commercial fishers in the same room? Will you encourage such a discussion to see how we can come up with something that will hold?

[Annette Gibbons]

We still have advisory committees for the different fisheries.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I see.

[Annette Gibbons]

Everyone is welcome.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Perfect.

You said earlier that this takes place in over 200 rivers. You also talked about having sufficient resources that would allow you to have control should things ever get out of hand again. Will you have a sufficient number of protection officers if a situation like last year's occurs? Do you have a guarantee that there will be enough resources to deal with it?

[Annette Gibbons]

Because the elver fishery is special, we prioritize it when it's open and when the elvers arrive. We deploy as many resources as possible to help manage this fishery.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

All right.

Mr. Napier, did you feel that there was a threat to the conservation and protection officers in this whole situation? Were you afraid, if I can put it that way, of making some arrests? What do your agents think about this whole situation?

[Brent Napier]

Thank you for your question.

I think it's not a question of fear. I think there's intelligence that needs to be brought forth, an understanding of the types of training and the mandate the officers have prior to entering any circumstance. This is where the discussions with our partners are so very important.

We talked about the RCMP and making sure they're involved in that process.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I'm going to ask one last question, which will be difficult to answer, but that's why we have this committee.

Have fisheries officers received any direction not to arrest commercial or first nations fishermen in the last two years, since these situations have been happening?

[Brent Napier]

I think there's a bias interaction.

From a fishery officer's perspective, it's all under the Fisheries Act. We talked about the authorizations. Are they in place? If they're not, then action is taken.

We heard from some of our colleagues about PPSC, the actions they take and the bar they have. We have a very different bar. We have the bar that measures whether that activity is legal or not under the Fisheries Act, and we act accordingly, using the discretion of the officers and the circumstances at the time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

We'll now go to Mr. Perkins for five minutes or less, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll ask Mr. Napier this—or whoever is appropriate.

Are you aware that CFIA certifies elvers that go out of the Toronto airport to Hong Kong?

[Brent Napier]

Yes, sir, we are aware and we talked about the intelligence. We're well aware of where this product is going. That's the laundering point—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Have you asked CFIA to stop doing that?

[Brent Napier]

The elvers that leave have not gone out under a seafood label. They go outside of a seafood label, as I understand it. Therefore—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It's going from a company owned by a Mr. Mao, who exports this under a CFIA banner.

I'd like CFIA included in our next meeting, by the way.

His brother-in-law is the manager of ChiCan in my riding, which is owned by a Mr. He in China, who's in jail in China for breaking Chinese law on importing illegal seafood. This is the money behind this operation. Are you pursuing that and shutting down Zheng Chao at Atlantic ChiCan?

Are you shutting down the company in Toronto that is exporting these illegal elvers and charging them?

[Brent Napier]

One challenge is that, once the elvers are laundered and mixed, it's very difficult to determine which part of that product is legitimate. There are transits of elvers from the Caribbean and other jurisdictions that go through that are legitimate, at least in our minds, and have not come from Canadian waters.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

When the TAC that this department has set is only 9,900 kilograms and 100 times that is going out the Toronto airport, it's pretty safe to say that nine out of 10 of the exports are illegal. Wouldn't you agree?

Do you think the 100 tonnes of eels going out of Toronto is all legal?

[Brent Napier]

Sir, without any understanding of the traceability, and unfortunately not being barcoded, we aren't able to determine legitimate and authorized—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I get that.

There lies the problem. The industry has been proposing to you, to the minister—she's not here, so I'll have to rely on you, Deputy Minister—traceability for six years. In fact, this last year, they proposed a system. They offered to pay for it and DFO turned them down and instead shut the fishery down.

Why has it taken so long to put in place a system that's been in place in the United States and Maine for years and that the industry itself is offering to pay for?

[Annette Gibbons]

We agree on the importance of the traceability system. A traceability system and regulations on possession along the supply chain really go hand in hand. The regulations are what will give us the additional enforcement authorities to prohibit the possession of elvers. The traceability system will allow us to be able to track what is happening across the supply chain.

We need those two pieces. We've been working very hard on it and have made very good progress on the regulations, but there's still work to do.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

As part of this enforcement plan that DFO has been working on, did the minister go to Treasury Board for more resources to support the plan and get turned down?

[Annette Gibbons]

We have the resources that we have for our C and P, and we prioritize within those resources.