Evidence of meeting #10 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was licence.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
October 30th, 2025 / 9:10 a.m.
President, Cape Breton Fish Harvesters Association
I was fortunate enough to have attended some meetings in B.C. to see the situation they're in because of not having owner-operator licences and the corporate concentration that's out there. That is the last thing I want to see on the east coast, because that would be the absolute destruction of all coastal communities in Atlantic Canada.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
My question was: Do you not see that there is a way that both—
President, Cape Breton Fish Harvesters Association
I don't see a way, because those corporations are going to come in, and they're going to worry about their bottom dollar. They're going to modernize their fleets and push small businesses like mine out of and off the water. I don't believe there's a spot for them to coexist.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Thank you very much.
Ms. Canet, you mentioned that, in the courts, prosecutors sometimes drop cases for strange reasons. There has been a lot of innuendo around things like that.
I'm curious whether there have been any cases where these strange reasons have ever been justified.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Ms. Canet, if you could provide a brief answer, that would be appreciated.
Project Manager, Regroupement des pêcheurs professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie
Yes, they have been justified. Whether they are appropriate justifications...it is a subjective way to approach it. That said, given the gravity of the infractions being dropped, and when you see that there are two types of approaches, you're wondering what the real reasons are behind dropping some cases for very serious infractions for some people and why less important infractions are being managed in a very hard way. Whether it is justified—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I'm afraid I'm going to have to jump in here, Ms. Canet.
If you have any additional testimony you'd like to provide, we're going to have to ask you to do so in writing, because we are over time for our panel here.
I want to thank all of our witnesses today. I especially thank Mr. Barron and the whole Barron family for being here in person for this meeting. The testimony you've given us has been really helpful for the report we're putting together and will filter into the recommendations that will be forthcoming. Thank you very much for all of your help.
We are going to briefly suspend now while we prepare for our next panel.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Before we continue, I’d like to make a few comments for the benefit of the new panel of witnesses.
Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking.
For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.
For interpretation, those of you who are on Zoom have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French.
As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.
With that, I’d like to welcome our witnesses. We have two witnesses appearing by video conference, representing Agence Mamu Innu Kakussesht, namely Mr. Daniel Malec, director, economic development and Mr. Guy Vigneault, director, Shipek Fisheries.
We’ll start with your opening statements for five minutes or less. The floor is yours.
Guy Vigneault Director, Shipek Fisheries, Agence Mamu Innu Kakussesht
Mr. Chair and members of the committee, good morning.
My name is Guy Vigneault. Today, we’d like to underscore how important it is for the Mamu Innu Kakussesht communities to share their views on the allocation of lobster fishing licences in zones 17 and 18. Some remarks have been made about Innu communities. We are here to share our perspective.
Two years ago, we received licences to operate on the Côte‑Nord. We wanted to tell the committee that we carried out exploratory tests even before the lobster fishing licences were issued; lobster is a species that is not new to science.
We had a number of meetings in different communities before the licences were issued. I’m on approximately eight indigenous and non-indigenous fishery-related committees. I’d like to point out that we’ve been made aware of reports suggesting that indigenous peoples may be using their licences to let other people fish in their stead.
I’d like to point out that Shipek Fisheries has 15 active vessels for fishing different species, including scallop, lobster, crab and whelk. In addition, 85% of our fishery members are from indigenous communities. We also have a few non-indigenous members.
Both indigenous and non-indigenous communities in the Côte‑Nord work together a lot in harmony. Interventions by the Innu resulted in the issuance of fishing licences. That’s the region’s engine. We did some extensive work with scientists and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to make things fair and equitable for everyone.
We are satisfied with the processes implemented on the Côte‑Nord. We have fishing licences adjacent to our areas. We are working collaboratively, and we continue to develop our region.
Unfortunately, there are those who have a hard time understanding why a licence is issued for one area and withdrawn from another area. We’ve had a lot of lobster in our sectors as a result of climate change, and in a way, it’s turned out to be a lucky break.
We need to be careful when it comes to the number of licences issued. We’re talking about some 30 licences or so, which is a drop in the bucket given that our regions have kilometres of coastline. The Côte‑Nord has 800 km of coastline and eight commercial licences and 25 exploratory licences. Fishers using binoculars have difficulty discerning their fellow fishers, and can’t even see them in some sectors.
There’s still room to secure more licences. In fishing zone 17 around Anticosti, which has 1,500 km of coastline, there are 12 fishing licences and 6…. I wouldn’t want to go too far on this subject, but the fact remains that hardly any licences have been issued around Anticosti or on the Côte‑Nord compared to Nova Scotia and Îles de la Madeleine, which has received 325 licences. If we do the math per square kilometre, our 30 or so licences are really not a lot.
We’ve received a few licences. There are efforts to involve indigenous communities a bit more.
On the Côte‑Nord, we collaborate effectively in a harmonious environment. Don’t try and break that. I do understand that some regions may have had more difficulties, but in our case, we’ve worked collaboratively and have developed a great economic sector in the Côte‑Nord.
I’ll let my colleague Daniel Malec continue.
Daniel Malec Director, Economic Development, Agence Mamu Innu Kakussesht
Good morning. Kwe kwe.
Mr. Chair, thank you for giving us an opportunity to represent the voice of indigenous peoples.
I’m Innu myself, from the Nutashkuan community, which is located 400 kilometres east of Sept-Îles. I’d like to briefly sum up everything that’s been said about the committee’s study.
I’d like to introduce our group, Agence Mamu Innu Kakussesht, or AMIK, which represents a group of Innu commercial fishing communities that catch crab, lobster, whelk and other species.
AMIK is presenting today at the request of the seven member communities along the Côte‑Nord of the St. Lawrence. We help Innu communities protect and conserve aquatic and ocean resources, as well as develop sustainable fisheries.
Within our group are seven member communities: the Innu communities of Essipit, Pessamit, Uashat Mak Mani-Utenam, Ekuanitshit, Nutashkuan, Unamen Shipu and Pakua Shipi. These communities hold community and exploratory lobster licences in zones 15, 16, 17 and 18. Each of these communities is represented on AMIK’s board of directors by its fisheries coordinator, myself and my colleague Guy Vigneault.
While we understand that the committee wanted to study this issue in order to respond to certain fishers’ groups, we are deeply disappointed that none of the political parties on the committee saw fit to call officials from the Innu nation who have obtained exploratory licences in zones 17 and 18 as witnesses. At no time were our communities’ representatives consulted or questioned before undertaking the review of the process and proportion of exploratory lobster licences issued to first nations. We took it upon ourselves to demand to be heard by the committee.
This committee’s work is important to us. However, if its studies are based on partial facts and an incomplete understanding of the issue, this adds to mistrust and division in Quebec’s fisheries sector.
Even so, Innu and non-indigenous fishers on the Côte‑Nord have been collaborating for decades, both scientifically and operationally, to advance knowledge in the field of fishery resources and to develop sustainable fisheries.
Issuing exploratory licences to Innu communities did not just happen overnight and was the result of a long process. Looking at growth, as my colleague said….
Since 2013, Innu communities have been working with Fisheries and Oceans Canada to obtain new lobster fishing licences in zones 17 and 18. From 2021 to 2023, my community of Nutashkuan conducted scientific fisheries in subzones 18G and 18H in collaboration with a private firm, funded in part by my community. That did add up to a significant amount of money.
In 2018, Agence Mamu Innu Kakussecht, or AMIK and Créneau Côte‑Nord formed a joint committee with indigenous and non-indigenous members to discuss developing scientific lobster fishing initiatives in fishing zone 18.
In 2023, AMIK helped establish scientific fisheries in subzones 8E and 18F by investing money belonging to the group.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I’m sorry, I have to interrupt you so we can move on to the round of questions. You can use the time to expand on your ideas.
We're going to have a chance for just one round of questioning here, the six-minute round.
We'll be starting with Ms. Anstey first.
Welcome to the committee.
Conservative
Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL
Thank you so much.
Thank you to the witnesses.
I represent a riding in Newfoundland and Labrador that has several coastal communities, and the fishery is very important.
I just want to pick up on something that Mr. Vigneault mentioned: the principal of adjacency. This is something that I hear a lot about in my coastal communities. Can you just expand on the importance of following that principle as it relates to the viability of coastal communities?
Director, Shipek Fisheries, Agence Mamu Innu Kakussesht
There are seven coastal communities in my region. We obtained licences in zones adjacent to our zones. This enables businesses, such as processors and processing plants to function effectively and contributes to the sustainability of our villages. We are very pleased with the issuance of new licences, which covered the employment insurance spring gap. The plants start working with snow crab, followed by lobster, and this has helped a lot.
Some licences have been issued, but we must be cautious because there are not many. We can’t even see our fellow fishers using binoculars. I think the Department of Fisheries and Oceans took a very prudent step based on science when it decided to issue licences.
That’s a major concern from an economic standpoint.
Conservative
Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL
Thank you.
The same applies in the coastal communities where I live. Often, that's part of the frustration—that decisions are made and that they don't often see this principle of adjacency applied.
Can you just speak briefly—and then I'm going to pass it off to my colleague, MP Small—about what the impacts to the community are when the principles of adjacency aren't followed? What are the impacts to the people living in those coastal communities?
Director, Shipek Fisheries, Agence Mamu Innu Kakussesht
The impact is that businesses and neighbouring wharves face very significant economic challenges. As I said earlier, indigenous and non-indigenous people work collaboratively. Adjacent villages have non-indigenous residents, and so we try to work together.
If someone who is not from these communities has a licence, that represents an economic challenge. Fishers are likely to face challenges securing fair wages and we will have difficulties maintaining our vessels and keeping them in safe operational condition.
Conservative
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Thank you.
Mr. Vigneault, I assume you're fairly familiar with the unit 1 redfish quota and the way it was divided up. Are you familiar with that recent decision?
Director, Shipek Fisheries, Agence Mamu Innu Kakussesht
I know a little bit about it, but I’m not within the redfish area because that’s a bit far from our area. Fishing redfish requires travelling a considerable distance from our communities. We try to focus on our sectors. Our people seek employment opportunities within their own villages or in nearby villages. We’re not really concerned with redfish on the Côte‑Nord.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Thank you very much.
That leads into my next question with regard to adjacency. You indicated that you're not so adjacent to the unit 1 redfish, but we have quite a large fleet in 4R, off the west coast of Newfoundland, that is very adjacent. It's within 10 or 12 miles of the shore, off the west coast of Newfoundland.
When you talk about the equity and the fairness that were in the distribution of those lobster licences to your group, how would you describe how fair the unit 1 redfish decision was for the harvesters of the west coast of Newfoundland and Labrador, given how close they are to the resource?
Director, Shipek Fisheries, Agence Mamu Innu Kakussesht
I can’t give a specific answer to that question because I’ve not dealt with the redfish matter closely. One of my colleagues had access to the resources in connection with shrimp. I’m afraid I really can’t speak to this subject.
Personally, I manage fishing for 15 vessels and 112 indigenous and non-indigenous employees, 85% of whom are Innu. We catch crab, lobster, scallop, whelk, halibut and groundfish, but we don’t have redfish in our area, and so I can’t really speak to that subject.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Thank you.
If a group of harvesters were heavily impacted by the predation of one species on another, such as the redfish consumption of shrimp, to a point at which the shrimp fishery in 4RST was basically not viable for many enterprises, do you think those harvesters should have been the ones to gain from the growth in redfish because it resulted in the demise of their shrimp livelihood?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I'm afraid I'm going to have to step in here because we are over time.
It's a very important question. If you could, please, provide an answer to the committee in writing, it would be much appreciated.
With that, we move to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, Mr. Vigneault and Mr. Malec.
Mr. Vigneault, I’ll start off with you.
Earlier, you said you work well with the other fishing communities and commercial fishers.
Some conflicts seem to drag on and escalate in other Atlantic regions and other parts of Canada. I’m taking the example of Nova Scotia, where conflicts related to lobster fishing have dragged on. There are periods where indigenous and non-indigenous fishers have a hard time co-existing.
It sounds as if you’re saying that everything’s going well in your corner. Is that correct?
Director, Shipek Fisheries, Agence Mamu Innu Kakussesht
Yes, that’s right. Things are going very well in our corner.
As I said earlier, I’m on eight fishery-related committees and vice-president and president of various joint committees that bring together indigenous and non-indigenous peoples. A number of non-indigenous fishers have reached out to me to start the process of trying to obtain lobster licences. We have agreements with groups of fishers on the Côte‑Nord to try and secure licences with 50% indigenous and 50% non-indigenous involvement.