Evidence of meeting #4 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was redfish.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
We'll wait for your response regarding zone 18. However, I'll keep talking about the Côte‑Nord. In the notice of interest for fishers in zone 18 on the Côte‑Nord, dated April 11, 2024, one sentence caught my attention. It reads as follows: “It should be noted that indigenous communities are not required to meet the eligibility criteria.”
Of course, there are criteria, and not everyone can expect to obtain an exploratory fishing licence. However, why was this sentence included?
September 25th, 2025 / 9:25 a.m.
Fisheries Management and Aquaculture Regional Director, Quebec Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
These eligibility criteria were determined in order to focus on owner‑operator fishers who would receive what we call an individual license. In the case of indigenous communities, we refer to “communal exploratory fishing licences.” That's why these specific criteria didn't apply to indigenous communities.
Bloc
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Sorry, but your time is up.
Next, we will go to Mr. d'Entremont for five minutes.
Conservative
Chris d'Entremont Conservative Acadie—Annapolis, NS
Thank you very much, Chair.
Again, there's always this challenge of talking about redfish and lobster at the same time. I don't know if they're really good to be together.
To what Mr. Cormier had to say, there are a number of bigger boats. They're not huge boats. I know there's been a range from 55 feet to 100 feet in some cases, from companies like Scotia Harvest and Mersey to Belle Baie and Caramer, which are all in our ridings. They're all employers in our ridings. Mr. Cormier, I think Belle Baie is in yours. Scotia Harvest is in mine. They are sharing, and they're catching product. They had existing markets. They're the ones that have been doing the largest amount of work on this. They're the ones that actually have the most regulations on observer coverage and those kinds of things. There is a sharing of responsibility here in how much offshore gets versus how much inshore gets.
That's on redfish, but that goes to the point, I think, of what we're starting to see in what this report is trying to show us. There are a lot of decisions here that were not necessarily scientifically based. They were not necessarily based on cautionary principles or on new, emerging policies. They were done for political expediency by the minister. I think in an effort to appease a number of fishing organizations in Madame Lebouthillier's riding, she sort of pushed the department into coming up with new, emerging species and trying to create new fisheries to try to appease those people.
What we're seeing is that a lot of times, when we go down these roads, it creates a precedence in other fisheries across the Atlantic that are so important for us.
My question is for the staff here, and again, thank you so much for being here. It's really hard to try to put that Jell-O back into the plastic bag that was created here. Can you give us a bit of a timeline on when this exploratory versus emerging fishery thing started to happen in the gulf, when it came to lobster more specifically? I know there have been some other sharing arrangements because of shrimp and redfish.
Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Certainly, very quickly on redfish, it was when the biomass and the stock and the individual fish reached a marketable level that it switched from index and experimental to commercial.
Ms. Lemire may want to comment.
Fisheries Management and Aquaculture Regional Director, Quebec Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes.
In terms of the plan for the knowledge acquisition and development of the lobster fishery for the three zones in question, the Côte‑Nord communities had been lobbying the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, or DFO, for nearly 10 years, noting that they had observed an increase in lobster abundance. This issue has been brought up with the DFO for quite some time. In recent years, they had also observed an increase in abundance indicators, such as the number of landings and the opportunistic sightings in places where lobsters hadn't been seen before. All these indicators helped to move things forward.
Conservative
Chris d'Entremont Conservative Acadie—Annapolis, NS
In testimony just a few moments ago, Mr. Deschênes talked about the lack of data in zone 19A, yet we now have licences in that zone.
Again, we skipped over a part of the process here in allotting these licences, because there was no data per se. Yes, maybe they saw some lobsters in those areas, but that's anecdotal. How do we go from anecdotal information to actual scientific information to fund the art of quota setting?
Fisheries Management and Aquaculture Regional Director, Quebec Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
In the zone 19 referred to in the question, exploratory fishing carried out in the western end since 2023 has detected the presence of lobster. Fishers have also made many observations and reports pointing to the presence of lobster on the north shore of Gaspésie.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. d'Entremont.
With that, we are going to move to our last questioner in the third round.
Mr. Klassen, you have the floor for five minutes.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Thank you very much. Thank you to all the witnesses.
We keep talking about experimental and exploratory law around both the lobster and the redfish. Can I get a bit of an explanation on the difference between experimental and exploratory? Also, how many phases are there in the process before the quotas are handed out?
Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
There is a new emerging fisheries policy within DFO that governs how this operates.
Essentially, it's in three stages. The first one is feasibility, in which we would issue what we call a “section 52 licence”, the experimental licence. From there it goes to an exploratory phase. The only difference there is that it has met the first test in terms of sustainability, and now we're looking at commercial demonstrations. For that, we would use a section 7 licence, or a regular commercial licence. Finally, stage three is full commercial.
From a policy perspective, that's it as outlined.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
When it goes to the commercial stage, how long is the licence for the quota given to the commercial fishers?
Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The general principle of the policy is that those who've participated in the expansion of that fishery and the early work that went into that process, and who have carried that out, would then have commercial access.
How that is determined in terms of allocation can vary significantly depending on the fishery, the other players and some of the other considerations we've been speaking about here today. That licence, like just about every other licence that we have, is renewed annually at the discretion of the minister.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Thank you.
The redfish fishery was closed for 30 years. Was it ever closed prior to that? How do you analyze when to reopen the fisheries again, since it was a 30-year period? What's the process that you go through?
Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Specifically, with unit 1 redfish, it was largely unregulated up until the middle of the last century. When it did close, we had the index and experimental fisheries continue to provide us with that information and allow harvesters to experiment with gear, different areas and that type of thing.
What we look for is really from the science, from the surveys and from the input provided by harvesters. What we were seeing was a burgeoning mass of redfish throughout the early part of the recent decades. We were hoping it would get just a bit bigger in terms of the fish size from a marketability perspective, but it plateaued. We think, right now, that fish size is about as good as it may get for the foreseeable future.
That's what we were looking for with the redfish.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Is there any idea why the redfish are now smaller than they have been in the past?
Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
In this particular case, there's speculation from our side that it could be just the carrying capacity of the ecosystem. That's essentially why it has plateaued.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Okay.
For information purposes, again, with regard to the economy of their redfish, what percentage of the harvesters in that area would you say are due to redfish? What percentage of the economy does that represent?
Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
As I referenced very briefly earlier, this is a fishery that operates on very thin margins. In speaking with harvesters, they're getting about 20¢ to 30¢ a pound at the wharf.
We are investing through the Atlantic fisheries fund to expand markets and product lines, partnering with harvesters and first nations, but to date it is still not a large fishery. For example, last year only 23 licence-holders actually participated.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Klassen.
That completes the third round. We're going to start the fourth round with Mel Arnold.
You have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to go back to Ms. Lemire for a quick answer.
Could you please provide to the committee in writing the scientific data on which DFO based its decision to open the experimental lobster fishery?
Fisheries Management and Aquaculture Regional Director, Quebec Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We can send you the scientific opinion and the stock status assessment.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Thank you for that.
Now I'll go to Mr. Williams.
Could you provide what monitoring enforcement measures are in place specific to the new redfish harvest and the exploratory lobster licences, so that DFO can be certain of what is actually taking place out there?
Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
For much of the season, from June 15 to December 31, we have 25% at-sea observer coverage. This was arrived at in consultation with harvesters. For vessels over 100 feet, that is 100% year-round; it's also 100% from January 1 to March 31 for vessels under 100 feet. There is a combination of at-sea observers there plus our regular hail-in and hail-out features and vessel monitoring systems, or VMS, with mandatory reporting.