Evidence of meeting #7 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was shrimp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Deschênes.
That finishes our first panel.
I would like to thank our witnesses for taking the time to meet with us. Your testimony will be very helpful for the report we're working on, including the recommendations that will flow from that as well.
With that, we're going to briefly suspend while we welcome our next panel.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
With that, I call this meeting back to order. We're moving to the second panel for today.
I just want to make a few comments on behalf of our new witnesses, who are appearing here today in person and also by video conference. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you're not speaking.
Regarding interpretation, for those using Zoom, you can choose between the floor, English, or French at the bottom of your screen. For those in the room, you can use the headset and select the desired channel.
I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.
I would like to welcome our witnesses for the second panel. We have Guy Gallant, fish harvester. We have Claudio Bernatchez, director general, Coopérative des capitaines propriétaires de la Gaspésie.
We also welcome Jean-René Boucher, Executive Director of the Regroupement des pêcheurs professionnels du Nord de la Gaspésie.
We start with the witnesses' opening statements for five minutes each, with Mr. Gallant.
Guy Gallant Fish Harvester, As an Individual
Good afternoon.
My name is Guy Gallant. I'm a fish harvester within the 4R gulf region. I'm from Benoit's Cove, a town situated in the Bay of Islands on Newfoundland's west coast immediately adjacent to the 4R zone.
I'd like to begin by thanking those involved for the privilege of being included in these hearings today. I will be speaking today not only on my behalf but on behalf of my father, Guy Gallant, Sr., and a few other harvesters who were prevented from participating and thus absent from any discussions held prior to the opening of the redfish fishery in 4R.
My father has been fishing in the Gulf of St. Lawrence since 1968 and has operated his own enterprise since 1974. He was one of the very last to be redfishing. He is still an active fisher today, and for many years he made his living, along with myself, my brother and the rest of our crew, solely from redfish in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and unit 2 until succumbing to the reality of poor stock management in the late 2000s.
The direct omission of his experiences and his knowledge was nothing short of discrimination and political ambition perpetrated by the FFAW and others involved in the preliminary stages of reopening this stock. They obtained information only from what would be the island's west coast shrimp fleet, which, in my view, has no direct correlation to any assignment of the redfish TAC, the end result of which leaves us with a quota that makes it impossible to sustain an enterprise today.
I'll deviate from my notes a little here. Our plight in this situation we're in started in the early to mid-1990s, when we tried to obtain access to shrimp in the gulf. We were denied by the department, and we have been left with only redfish since the collapse of the cod fishery. We started lobbying government for access to northern shrimp back in the mid-1990s, when the boom in shrimp started off the northeast coast of the province.
A committee was formed on the island here. They called it north of 50-30 and rejected any applicant trying to obtain direct access to the shrimp who lived below the 50-30 latitude line. This left us with absolutely nothing left to catch but redfish on the otter trawl side of our enterprise.
We're hearing discussions here about the shrimp fleet, but there was also a redfish fleet here. We were one of probably five who sustained ourselves solely through redfish until the mid-2000s, when it became impossible to make a further contribution to an enterprise from redfish.
We then, at much expense, redid our boat to be able to make it available for our purse seine licence, so we were able to sustain ourselves for a few years after that in the mackerel fishery. Of course, we know that has been under moratorium for the last few years, so again we had to rebuild our vessel, The Gallant Lady, to put her back in the otter trawl sector of the fishery. It took quite a sum of money, well over a million dollars, all in anticipation of this redfish quota that was to be allocated. Unfortunately, through misappropriation, I feel, of the allocation, we were left with mere scraps to try to make an enterprise viable.
We had 74 tonnes... We'd have to decide which part of the fish hold we'd put that in aboard our vessel to keep her in good trim, because it wouldn't be enough to load her. One trip.... This is what we'd have to sustain ourselves with. It's impossible.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Mr. Gallant, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to wrap up, because we're just past five minutes here.
Fish Harvester, As an Individual
Sure. Thank you very much.
To conclude, I thank you very much for the opportunity to even be speaking here today, because we went unheard for so many years.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Gallant.
Mr. Bernatchez, you now have the floor for a maximum of five minutes.
Claudio Bernatchez Director General, Coopérative des Capitaines Propriétaires de la Gaspésie
Good afternoon Mr. Chair and members of the committee.
The St. Lawrence River and the people who depend on it have been undergoing significant upheaval in recent years. To give you an idea, here are the species that have been heavily impacted in recent years. In 2020, there was a moratorium on snow crab in zone 12B. In 2021, there was a moratorium on mackerel and spring herring. In 2022, there was a moratorium on red plaice, yellowtail flounder and northern cod. In 2023, there was a collapse in Greenland halibut and northern shrimp stocks.
We can therefore say that, during this period, several fleets were heavily impacted in all regions of Quebec. The years 2023 and 2024 were difficult for coastal communities in northern Gaspésie, which depend on fishing. The level of activity on the docks reached a low rarely seen before. In the Côte-de-Gaspé RCM, several assistance measures were put in place to provide minimal support to affected fishers.
Fortunately, in 2025, we saw a slight upturn in activity, benefiting some fishers and several businesses related to the industry. Although the challenge remains for some fleets, in general, the economy is doing better than in the previous two years.
With regard to the subject of this study, namely the method of allocating new quotas or new licences to fishers or fishers’ associations, it might be desirable for the industry and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to agree on the main principles guiding the processes to be followed. These principles could include fairness, assistance to struggling fleets and maximum benefits for coastal communities. In addition, finding a way to make these assistance measures flexible could provide the necessary flexibility to respond to changing conditions in the ecosystem and the industry that depends on it.
I hope that the study conducted by this committee, which is primarily aimed at evaluating the method of allocating exploratory lobster fishing licences in zones 17, 18 and 19, will result in a shared commitment by all stakeholders to ensure the sustainability of the capture industry in response to the challenges that will arise.
I ask you to be catalysts in courageously initiating discussions that are sometimes difficult but necessary in this regard.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Bernatchez.
Mr. Boucher, you have the floor for a maximum of five minutes.
Jean-René Boucher General Manager, Regroupement des pêcheurs professionnels du Nord de la Gaspésie
Mr. Chair and members of the committee, this study aims to shed light on the process of allocating exploratory lobster fishing licences in order to improve things for the future. Although some aspects need to be reviewed, we believe it is important to provide some context and highlight what has been done well in this process, specifically for zone 19.
Turbot fishers have witnessed the collapse of their stocks in recent years. The total allowable catch, which remained stable at 4,500 tonnes for several years, is now set at 290 tonnes for the 2025-26 season for zones 4RST in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The value of turbot landings in the Gaspésie fell from nearly $10 million in 2017-18 to $3.7 million in 2021-22, before collapsing completely to $18,721 in 2024-25. With the collapse of the turbot fishery, these exploratory lobster licences are a timely lifeline for this fleet. The increase in lobster abundance since 2018, thanks to an experimental project that became exploratory between the Tartigou River and Rivière-à-Claude, has been confirmed with the exploitation of new licences in 2025. Indeed, landing data show a more than interesting abundance of the resource.
To determine the eligibility of fishers for these licences, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, or DFO, used various criteria, including residency as well as the fishing efforts of fishers in so-called struggling fleets in previous years.
Residency is one of the oldest criteria used by DFO to determine fishers’ eligibility for fishing licences, both when new licences are issued and when licences are reassigned. For example, fishers brought to my attention that when lobster licences were issued in southern Gaspésie in the 1990s, fishers from northern Gaspésie were not eligible because they did not reside in that territory.
The criterion related to fishing effort is not perfect. It might have been appropriate to establish a minimum landing threshold for eligibility, to ensure that fishers were not only active in appearance. Furthermore, although the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans at the time mentioned wanting to help the next generation with these licences, DFO could have made an additional effort in this regard without excluding experienced fishers from the process.
Although the process was carried out quickly, it must be acknowledged that departmental managers and the minister’s office listened to our comments and suggestions. For example, the idea of issuing 100-pot licences rather than 250-pot licences to non-indigenous fishers in zone 19 came from the industry. This is ultimately what was done, even though initially several people at the department did not view this proposal favourably. The rollout of these licences in three phases rather than two, as originally planned, was a suggestion from other industry players that the department listened to and implemented. It would also be wrong to claim that unrecognized associations were completely ignored, as suggestions made by individual fishers were taken on board by DFO in the implementation of this project.
With the challenges facing the fishing industry continuing to mount, it is important that these licences continue to support the future of struggling fleet fishers and new entrants to the industry. It is therefore important to consider the transferability of these licences, whether they are exploratory or commercial.
In conclusion, I would like to raise the following question: Should the fact that certain groups or individuals were unable to obtain exploratory lobster licences completely discredit the process, as well as the criteria used to grant these fishing licences?
Thank you for your attention, and I will be happy to answer any questions you may have.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Boucher.
With that, we are going to move right into our first round of questioning, starting with Mr. Small for six minutes.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Gallant, how do you compare the reality of the unit 1 redfish fishery with the hype that was created by then minister Dominic Leblanc in 2018?
Fish Harvester, As an Individual
It's very difficult to put the two of them together. A lot of what we've been preparing for for the last six or seven years, revamping our vessel to go back to the redfish fishing.... The hype that was associated with it was to the point where you had to stop everything else and get ready for this.
To end up, at the end of the day, with 74 tons—about 140,000 pounds—of redfish valued at 25¢ to 27¢ per pound.... That means that you're looking at about $38,000 to $40,000 worth of fish to catch. That's what you have to sustain yourself with for the year and then hope something comes down the pipe so that you can add a few more pounds to that. To say it's unviable is an understatement.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
We had first nations allocations. I believe you are a member of a first nations band yourself. Is that correct?
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
What's your opinion on how that allocation was distributed—not the size of the allocation but who's actually going to be catching it? Would you think that you yourself would be a major benefactor of that, being in the Qalipu First Nation?
Fish Harvester, As an Individual
I would hope so, Mr. Small. I would think that's the government's projection to have it allocated to members of the first nations and distributed to them so that their own members can avail themselves of it.
However, with what we have on our own enterprise to start fishing with—such a minuscule amount of quota—to start a business plan for this upcoming year, and just going out on a wing...to say that we'll do better when we get the allocation that the first nations have been allotted.... You can't run an enterprise by hoping somebody else is going to take you into consideration because you're a member, without it being legally stated.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Mr. Gallant, basically you invested a million dollars on the strength of the future of the redfish fishery, going forward from 2018. Is that correct?
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
I have another question for you as well, here. My opinion, obviously, is well known on the impact of ENGOs on fisheries management. You mentioned the demise of the mackerel fishery, and we've been fighting so hard to get that back. What's your opinion of the increasing influence of ENGOs as stakeholders?
Fish Harvester, As an Individual
Mr. Small, all my life—and I've been fishing now for 36 years—all we've based fisheries on was science, and not influence—especially influence from parties that have nothing invested in this industry. All we've based all of our fisheries on, good or bad, was science. Now, all of a sudden, we have a large entity of ENGOs that is having way too much influence on what this country is doing.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Thank you.
Monsieur Bernatchez, what's your opinion of the increasing influence of ENGOs at stock advisories? What do you think the impact was on the unit 1 quota? Science has said that this quota could have been set at a sustainable level of 300,000 tonnes for now. If it's going to die, you might as well catch it. It's going to die one way or the other.
Do you think the ENGOs had an impact on having that quota set at such a low level as 60,000 tonnes, and what was that impact on investment in your harvest or your fleet?
Director General, Coopérative des Capitaines Propriétaires de la Gaspésie
I hope they had no impact on any decision that's been made. You have the industry and you have DFO, the scientists who care about the resource. If a resource goes down enough that you have to declare a moratorium, as a scientist, I guess you won't feel good. As a fisherman, if your resource declines and you lose your way of life and your income, you cannot feel good.
Do we really need a third entity to come and try to tell us—and by “us” I mean all the stakeholders—what to do? I don't know how and why they ended up being part of discussions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much.
Mr. Cormier, you have the floor for six minutes.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you.
Mr. Bernatchez, it could be said that the two topics under discussion today, lobster and redfish fishing licences, concern you, since you represent all these fishers and all these groups.
I want to talk about the decision made by the minister at the time regarding the allocation of lobster fishing licences. Do you think the minister made the right decision, considering what she had before her at the time, with regard to the exploratory licences that were granted to the various fishers and fleets?
Director General, Coopérative des Capitaines Propriétaires de la Gaspésie
There will always be people who disagree with decisions. Obviously, those on the right side of the permits, that is, those who have received them, will agree. Those who are not will be unhappy, and rightly so.
Could the process have been better? Perhaps. How? I couldn’t tell you. As for whether it has a beneficial effect on our communities, from an economic standpoint, I won’t go into that—