Evidence of meeting #8 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
I know you might not be here for that, but I'm asking you the question. Do you think the fisheries have been effectively managed, and do you see any considerable optimism going forward?
President, Fisheries Council of Canada
I'm optimistic based on the conversations we've had, including with members of this committee, that our priorities have been heard. I'm looking forward to working with you and with the current government.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
My next question is for Ms. Elmslie.
I looked at your financials. In 2024, 83% of your deferred funding came from the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation out of the United States. What's the purpose of that funding? Is that funding your science program or whatnot?
Senior Campaign Director, Oceana Canada
That funds across our campaigns.
Mr. Chair, I want to make a point of clarification on Oceana funding. I can provide our full audited financial statements. In terms of our funding, 90% comes from Canadian foundations, including Donner, Echo, RBC, Nikita, Power Corp, Mark Pathy and Sitka. We are staffed by Canadians, funded in the majority by Canadians.
October 23rd, 2025 / 9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Ms. Elmslie, define the campaign. What's a campaign to you as it relates to your desire to change subsection 6.1(1)?
What's your campaign? Can you describe your campaign against the livelihoods in the Atlantic Canadian fishery that are 35% in the healthy zone? Do you want the other 35% shut down? Are you using that money to campaign against livelihoods?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Ms. Elmslie, could you give a very brief response? We are over time here.
Senior Campaign Director, Oceana Canada
I want the other 35% to be in the healthy zone too, or trending towards the healthy zone. If we get to a point where a fishery has to be closed or there's a moratorium, that is a management failure. That is not a good place to be in.
What we're looking for is clarity in section 6.1, which is changing “sustainability” to “healthy”. That would be in line with all of the existing DFO policy that is out there, which is that, when stocks are in the cautious zone approaching critical, management measures should be put in place to trend them back up towards healthy so there are more fish and more fishing.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much.
Ms. Elmslie, if you'd like to submit anything else in writing after this meeting, that will be considered as part of the study.
With that, we're moving on to our next questioner.
Mr. Cormier, you have the floor for six minutes.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, Ms. Chadillon‑Farinacci.
Thank you for being here today. I assume you're speaking to us live from Moncton.
I'm the son of a fisherman, and I've seen the fisheries evolve over the past few years, especially the lobster fishery, which has become very lucrative. As you said earlier, we have reasons to wonder about certain regulations and certain acts. People wonder if the legislation is strict enough. Some also wonder about arrests that have been made. You said that there were two ways to improve all that.
I'd like to talk about sanctions first. When offences are committed, Fisheries and Oceans Canada currently publishes the names of individuals, the type of offence and the amount associated with it. I'm sometimes surprised to see that an offender caught catching female lobsters with eggs or catching a large quantity of another prohibited species gets a fine of only $200.
Do you think the fine amounts set out in the act are high enough to deter those people from starting again, sometimes the next day, or from committing the same offences again?
Should the fine amounts be reviewed to make the regulations stricter? I'm thinking of licences being lost in particular.
Would that deter a lot more people from committing those offences?
Associate Professor of Criminology, University of Moncton, As an Individual
Thank you for the question. It's very relevant.
Recidivism studies associate two elements with deterrence. Of course, there's the proportionality of the fine amount. It's important to ask whether the amount corresponds to the seriousness of the offence. That can be asked for all fisheries and species.
That said, the element better associated with deterring offences is the risk of getting caught. It's important to think of consequences that will influence this calculation of pros and cons. Fines can be imposed, but there are also other deterrents, such as targeted patrols. The measures to stop or arrest and fine an offender aren't always criminal in nature, but those two elements can work together.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
In your research or in the studies that you've probably read, have you been able to determine whether there are enough fishery officers and Royal Canadian Mounted Police, or RCMP, officers on the ground to make those arrests?
Are there enough resources? Should there be even more?
Fishing has become very lucrative. We're hearing more and more about how organized crime is now present in the fisheries sector. If I wanted to commit a burglary, I wouldn't go to a bank; I would go to the docks. People are saying that there are an incredible number of money-filled suitcases being exchanged there.
Ms. Chadillon‑Farinacci, are you hearing about those things? Are you aware of any such situations?
Have you heard any testimony on that in your studies?
Associate Professor of Criminology, University of Moncton, As an Individual
Yes, I've read Canadian studies from the 1990s that mentioned traces of organized crime as well as situations of violence against fishery officers. This isn't new.
However, criminogenic dynamics may have become more prevalent in recent years. The profession of a fishery officer has changed. There are a number of factors that can lead to changes in the roles and responsibilities of fishery officers. That's why I proposed a recommendation to better define those roles and responsibilities and to frame the authority of fishery officers through a code of conduct.
I noticed a second thing in my studies, which was the degree of knowledge related to fisheries. Fishery officers have a good knowledge of the field. They're conservation experts.
As for RCMP officers, they sometimes lack knowledge about how fisheries work. That can lead to some explosive situations and inhibit their ability to respond. It might be good to work on that. They could be offered training, or partnerships could be created.
It's also important to clarify the roles in grey-area situations, that is to say the situations where it's unknown whether the RCMP officers or the fishery officers are supposed to intervene. Those responsibilities should be clarified in the Fisheries Act and assigned to one agency or another.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Is it easy for you to use the Fisheries and Oceans Canada website to access information about people who are arrested?
Can you easily access the names of those individuals and the amounts of the fines imposed on them?
Associate Professor of Criminology, University of Moncton, As an Individual
No, it's very difficult to find that kind of information online. Some of it can be found, but it's partial data, and it's only published for a short time. The data is also presented in a very administrative way. I can't use that data in my studies.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
I'd like to ask one last question. It's sensitive, but I have to ask it. The committee needs answers.
When it comes to indigenous fisheries or commercial fisheries, do you find that fishery officers or RCMP officers are more reluctant to arrest members of certain groups when an offence is committed?
Associate Professor of Criminology, University of Moncton, As an Individual
I ask myself that question as well as part of my studies. Those kinds of things can be measured with data.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Cormier.
Mr. Deschênes, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Elmslie, there was discussion earlier about section 2.5 of the Fisheries Act. It says that the minister “may”, in any decision she makes, take certain things into consideration.
We've proposed limiting the minister's discretionary power by amending section 2.5. Instead of using the verb “may”, the statement should use the verb “must” so that the minister is required to take those factors into consideration. One factor is the application of a precautionary approach.
How does your group view this idea of making it mandatory to take into account the factors set out in section 2.5?
Senior Campaign Director, Oceana Canada
Yes. Now they must look at indigenous knowledge systems, so I think clarity around what that means.... How are you safeguarding that information? How are you getting that information? Yes, we do think that the minister should be required to take that in, but also more clarity needs to be provided on what happens to that information once the minister has that information.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Thank you, Ms. Elmslie.
Ms. Chadillon-Farinacci, I'd like to come back to some of the questions that my colleague Mr. Cormier asked.
What do you think is the problem with enforcing the act in the fisheries sector?
Associate Professor of Criminology, University of Moncton, As an Individual
There are a number of them. The fact that fishery officers' roles and responsibilities aren't clearly defined and enforceable leaves things unclear. That can lead to officers allowing situations to deteriorate to the point where they become criminal. The file is then handed over to the RCMP. To address that kind of grey area, fishery officers' roles and responsibilities need to be better defined.
It's also important to have a look at the separation of powers. There should be a clear hierarchy of the people to whom fishery officers report. Could the officers be influenced by managers? Fishery officers should be protected from these potential influences. That could repair or improve the relationship with the communities that are likely to report offences and problematic situations.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
The first observation is that the powers of fishery officers aren't necessarily clear. Several sections of the Fisheries Act address this issue, starting in section 49, entitled, “Powers of Fishery Officers and Fishery Guardians”. The various powers given to those people are listed.
What's missing from the act?
Associate Professor of Criminology, University of Moncton, As an Individual
It isn't necessarily about adding powers. In some ways, fishery officers have broader powers than RCMP officers. They can intervene without a warrant, for example.
Instead, it's important to clarify when those powers can be used and depoliticize the actions of fishery officers when they undertake initiatives. For that to happen, it would be necessary to better define the situations in which they have an obligation, not an opportunity, to intervene.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
What do you mean by “depoliticize the actions of fishery officers”?
Are there currently any fishery officers who, despite their powers under the act, won't exercise them for political reasons?