Evidence of meeting #9 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was provisions.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Thank you so much for that.
Mr. Prins, you said that “aquaculture” was not properly defined, depending on agriculture and fisheries. What does the aquaculture definition look like to you?
October 28th, 2025 / 4:10 p.m.
Executive Director, BC Shellfish Growers Association
If you look in the dictionary for the definition of aquaculture, you see that it's the cultivation of aquatic plants and animals for food. That is what aquaculture is.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
I think most people, including the T'Sou-ke First Nation, are supportive of shellfish aquaculture. They would like to improve and expand shellfish aquaculture in the harbour.
Can you tell us what is presenting the barriers to increasing the blue economy in that area?
Executive Director, BC Shellfish Growers Association
Part of the challenge is that, unfortunately, it is jurisdictionally complex, especially shellfish aquaculture. In B.C.—and you can correct me on this—there are over 20 different levels of government and regulations that have some form of jurisdiction over aquaculture.
In short, the specific challenges to expansion are around available area. That is licensing that is currently managed by the province, but it is done in the form of a harmonized application process that the federal government, through DFO and Transport Canada, sits in on as well.
Obviously, when you go through this complex licensing process, you need to incorporate local government bylaws and upland owner consent, and you need to engage with the public and with first nations. It's a challenging and lengthy process, and that's just on licensing the area.
Once you've done that, you need to have your water classification done through the CSSP, the Canadian shellfish sanitation program, which, again, is a jurisdictionally complex situation because you have DFO, Canadian Food Inspection Agency, and Environment and Climate Change Canada sitting over that, and currently the governance system is consensus-based. You need to carve out the requirements, where Environment and Climate Change Canada needs to do water classification, CFIA needs to do the food safety portion of it and DFO essentially is the enforcement of that.
It's just the jurisdictionally complex nature of it that forces it to take that long.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Thank you.
Ms. Carlson, you were talking about the cumulative effects and how really there's no framework in place, so there should be a better framework in place for monitoring that.
Can you give us examples of some of the cumulative effects you've noticed in that industry?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I hate to do this again, but we're going to require a short answer, because we are over time.
Staff Lawyer, West Coast Environmental Law Association
Here are some quick ideas for you.
In B.C., there are more than 700,000 kilometres of resource roads—somewhat surprisingly, if you think about it—but they're there and they all have stream crossings. Those are all cumulative effects.
Cumulative effects that maybe aren't already in place are cases where folks are somehow modifying the shoreline structures, perhaps if they have a riparian property. Bit by bit, it goes up the waterway until the waterway is impassable and not accessible for salmon.
Those are types of cumulative effects. There are so many that it's hard to see them.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I'm going to have to stop it there. There will be more opportunities for questions afterwards, but thank you very much, Mr. Klassen.
Mr. Deschênes, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, everyone.
My question is for Mr. Knight.
Section 49 of the Fisheries Act and the following sections concern the powers of fishery officers. Based on your experience within the department and as a consultant for several years, do fishery officers have sufficient powers to ensure the protection of resources?
Fisheries Management Consultant, As an Individual
It's a very good question. I had over 20 years experience in applying the Fisheries Act as a fishery officer, supervisor, manager and director of the program.
I can tell you right now that, in my estimation, the powers are more than adequate. [Technical difficulty—Editor] of a fishery officer are sometimes more extensive than what you would find with a police officer, given the nature of the business.
The greatest challenge with any enforcement organization is effectively applying the powers, and that requires training, supervision and leadership. That's an ongoing process. What I also know, and what I guess most of the committee members know, is that the operations that fishery officers carry out are often very complex and very controversial. They often find themselves in the middle of groups and disputes. They have the appropriate powers; it's a matter of applying what's in the act effectively.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Last week, a professor told us that, according to confidential testimony she had gathered, several fisheries officers were terrified of taking action, probably in controversial cases such as those you have raised, because they feared reprisals from their superiors.
What can you tell us about this situation?
Fisheries Management Consultant, As an Individual
I don't know the details of the particular situation you're talking about, but I can speak in general terms about fishery officers carrying out their work.
It's quite often the case that they do carry out work that's controversial. It's often in a very tense environment where there's already a dispute between parties. The role of the fishery officer is to enforce the Fisheries Act and conserve and protect the fish, but they often get dragged in between that. That makes it a very complex operating environment.
In my experience as a fishery officer or a manager, I never really felt that there was any real concern about reprisals for people who were doing their jobs appropriately. There's often times in the organization when others want to question. Can you do more of this? Do you really think you should charge someone for that? For the most part, in my experience, there was an effective separation of the enforcement roles and the management roles.
As a manager and a director of the conservation and protection program, I was always able to push back to my supervisor. I felt safe in doing so and saying, “You shouldn't get involved with that. If you do, you could be the one ending up in court and giving evidence as a witness with the fishery officers, their supervisors and the Crown prosecutors.”
I never felt any fear of reprisals in getting the work done that needed to be done.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
According to the decision-making process of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, when a fisheries officer encounters a controversial situation and observes violations, he or she must decide whether to file a report and whether to take the matter further.
At what level within the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is the decision to initiate criminal proceedings made?
Fisheries Management Consultant, As an Individual
That depends somewhat on the situation, the complexity of it and what's involved. If it's, for example, dealing with a foreign vessel that's entered illegally into the Canadian zone, then that decision would be taken in collaboration with senior managers and the Department of Justice.
If it's a routine matter, that matter is often left with the frontline fishery officer, and then subsequently with the Crown prosecutors to proceed with the charge or not if they deem there's sufficient evidence and the prosecution would be in the public interest.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
You explained in your testimony that part of the act stipulated that the Minister had to take certain criteria into account when granting new fishing licences, but you also said that this was not always respected.
What did you mean by that? Can you tell me which section of the act you are referring to?
I would ask you to give a brief answer, as I only have 30 seconds left of my speaking time.
Fisheries Management Consultant, As an Individual
I'll try to give you a quick answer.
That is currently not in the act. It is part of the fisheries management policies of DFO. I'm suggesting, because it's such an important matter—and follows the Law of the Sea, by the way—that fish resources be allocated to coastal peoples and that adjacency should be built in.
If we're going to make the act complex, and all of the things that are in there now indicate we are, we should include that the minister shall consider adjacency as a matter when allocating resources.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Deschênes.
That concludes the first round of questions.
We're going to move into the second round of questioning starting with Mr. Arnold for five minutes.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Knight, because of your extensive experience, would you say that the Fisheries Act provides adequate direction for the minister to manage fish stocks for both conservation and economic benefit?
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
In your opinion, is the Fisheries Act, and associated regulations, being implemented and properly enforced?
Fisheries Management Consultant, As an Individual
That question is a little tougher. I think that the minister makes decisions in her or his role in carrying out the duties under the act based on the best advice that she or he has. I think the various players make their decisions based on their best judgment of the situation at the time, but I think it's very clear and evident that, looking back, there have been examples when, in the eyes of the public, the act is not being enforced properly or the fisheries are not being managed properly, or the enforcement work is not being carried out adequately.
In the eyes of the public, I don't think there's a way to always be 100% perfectly onside, because it would take a tremendous number of resources to, for example, satisfy the needs of some of the interest groups to carry out what needs to be done.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Are you saying it's an impossible task or is it just not being carried out under the current provisions of the act?
Fisheries Management Consultant, As an Individual
I think it's an impossible task to always be deemed as doing the work 100% correctly all of the time. You're never going to satisfy everyone in the public, given the diverse points of view. There are also times when—
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
I'll maybe change it up a little bit, then.
If the act and associated regulations were better enforced, what would the results be for conserving and producing our fisheries?
Fisheries Management Consultant, As an Individual
I think there are times when better enforcement may yield better returns, or better stock health, but, for the most part, it's diminishing returns. For example, in certain salmon rivers, sometimes poaching has become an issue, but extra resources have to be brought there to protect the stocks. That means, lots of times, that the resources have to be pulled from somewhere else.
But, yes, more resources could sometimes help the resource be a little healthier.