Subcommittee on Food Safety Committee on April 22nd, 2009

[Dr. David Butler-Jones]

Thank you. That's actually a very astute observation by Mr. Allen, Mr. Chair, because it represents the many hundreds of diseases out there. Concerning the assessment of what is required by way of notification and what we track versus what we get information on, in the case of this particular outbreak I'm not sure it made a difference in terms of when we knew what we knew, but the principle you're outlining points to the need for that continuous evaluation and thinking increasingly broadly, for the very reasons you identified, around not just the multi-provincial or large-scale but also multinational nature of these things.

That is something we're continuing to look at. If as a committee you have additional reflections on it, we'd be very interested in them. But we will be looking at this and continue to do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Your time has expired.

Mr. Storseth will have five minutes.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to ask Mr. Butler-Jones who brought the Public Health Agency of Canada into this process?

[Dr. David Butler-Jones]

Initially the laboratory was engaged as the reference laboratory and Health Canada's laboratory in terms of the food samples. It can come from either direction. In this case we recognized and Ontario recognized at the same time that something was going on. Our lab recognized that there were a number of positive isolates with the same typing, which said that something else is going on. That was the particular trigger, but the province and others have engaged us at different points in this process for different reasons.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Did you work fully with and have good cooperation with CFIA during this time?

[Dr. David Butler-Jones]

Absolutely. On an ongoing basis, one of the things we've worked very hard at over the almost five years now of the agency is—because public health is not simply what the Public Health Agency does but is issues that are addressed by a range of departments—our engagement with departments across government and with our colleagues in the provinces and territories, including the establishment of a public health network, which brings together officials from public health from across the country as well as expert committees, etc., that now have a forum for bringing together that information as well as policy and other advice to the conference of deputy ministers, where Morris and I sit, and on to the conference of ministers.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

So it would be safe to say that you felt that you were in the loop during this process.

There has been some disturbing information here today. I was quite disturbed to hear the role that Ms. Bennett played in Dr. Williams' press conference. Dr. Williams does seem to be a little out of the loop here.

Mr. Chair, I think it's important that I read a letter from Toronto Public Health, dated September 24, 2008, into the record regarding the Maple Leaf Foods plant investigation.

It reads: This serves to indicate and document our sincere appreciation for the cooperation between the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) and Toronto Public Health (TPH) during the investigation of the Maple Leaf Toronto plant, which was linked to the recent listeria outbreak.

The CFIA has lead responsibility for inspection and related activities of a plant such as Maple Leaf Foods during the investigation of an outbreak. However, the Medical Officer of Health has a responsibility under the Health Protection and Promotion Act to prevent, eliminate and decrease the effects of health hazards in the health unit, Toronto in this case. Furthermore, the local Board of Health and the general public wanted to know what actions were being taken to ensure the safety of the food products from Maple Leaf Foods once the plant was allowed to resume production. We would not be able to answer that question without the level of inter-agency cooperation that existed during this investigation.

While attempts are being made at the provincial and national levels to improve inter-agency coordination during outbreak investigations, it is our hope that the networking and cooperation that existed during the Maple Leaf investigation will continue, if not improve, in the future. Please convey our gratitude to the members of your team who facilitated the process and provided timely notification as required.

This seems pretty clear-cut in corresponding with what you're saying about the cooperation that existed at all levels.

I'd like to shift gears a little here. What we're here as a committee to talk about is some recommendations to improve our food safety system, to help reassure Canadians that we indeed have one of the best food safety systems in the world.

I know you are aware of some of the changes that our government has taken recently to improve food safety. We have hired 200 new inspectors and have put forward an additional $113 million for food and product safety.

Ms. Bennett has said she's heard this before; hopefully she'll stop asking questions on this soon.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Order.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

I'm sure you're aware that our government recently put out new directives for listeria control. For example, we brought back environmental testing for listeria, which the Minister of Health in 2005 had cut. We've also added an additional $250 million in strengthening lab capacity.

Do you feel that these steps are steps in the right direction, and would you feel comfortable in commenting on how some of these steps are going to better our food safety system?

[Dr. David Butler-Jones]

Certainly, and Morris, I'm sure, will have some comments as well.

It is, as we keep saying, a system issue in different parts of the system. As Dr. Williams noted, many things went very well in the cooperation and collaboration, and in his comments he recognized that there were ways that we can improve at all levels. I think that was the essence of it. There have been some new and very important things, everything from the things you've identified to the technological advances and the work to make the system and the way of working together better, all of which is important.

There's always more that we can do. My goal is to make sure that month on month, year on year, we continue to get better, and that is all part of it.

[Morris Rosenberg]

I would just add that I think the move by CFIA to mandatory environmental testing is welcome. It will be reflected in our updated listeria policy, on which we're having broad consultations, as I mentioned, and which we hope to have in place before the end of this fiscal year.

Just to reiterate, we are putting in place through our lessons learned exercise a number of initiatives to try to ensure that we are as efficient as we can be. And we will continue to look at new science around the world and at the changing nature of the challenges in the food system, and we will make adjustments accordingly.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much.

Of course, that is our committee's goal too, as well as bringing forward further suggestions to help improve our system, despite the allegations the Liberal opposition continues to put forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you, Mr. Storseth.

We'll now move to Mr. Easter for five minutes.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

They're not allegations, Mr. Chair. What we're looking to establish are some facts here.

Dr. Butler-Jones, on Mr. Bellavance's question about the number of press conferences you held over the timeframes he asked about, we will require not only the dates, but also the nature of the statements. The reason is that they may give us some indication as to whether or not there was information management by the Prime Minister's Office. We certainly know that the Minister of Agriculture couldn't be found at all during the election; he went into hiding and didn't even attend the Saskatchewan rally for candidates. That is irresponsible, when you have a minister—

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Mr. Storseth, you have a point of order.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

I just want to clarify the record. I was in Lloydminster, where the minister stood at a public forum and answered all of the questions that came forward, and at the end he had rousing applause from his constituents, who believe he is doing great work.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

One rally.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

The correction is noted.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

It's not a correction, Mr. Chair. I'm talking about the rally in Saskatoon, and he wasn't there where the media could find him.

Anyway, that is the reason we want the information, because we want to see if there was any information management from the centre.

The question that Mr. Allen had related to one date, but I'll go a little further.

Ms. Ballantyne, the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying has indicated that there were three meetings between Health Canada and representatives of Maple Leaf Foods: on July 25, August 29, and September 3. You can determine later on if those dates are accurate or not, but we would like to know if there were additional meetings with Maple Leaf Food subsequently, or after September, and up to February.

I expect you'd be able to answer this part: during those meetings, beginning with the one on July 25, was the issue of listeriosis discussed? Can you answer that?

[Meena Ballantyne]

I can answer that right now. I don't remember ever discussing listeriosis with Maple Leaf Foods.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

In that case, were notes kept of those meetings? And are the witnesses prepared to table with this committee the notes from those meetings with whoever was there? We would expect to see those, if we could.

And to the Public Health Agency, did you have any meetings during this period with representatives of Maple Leaf Foods?

[Dr. David Butler-Jones]

There were a number of engagements, as Dr. Plummer was indicating, on lab testing. There were some conversations. I did have a conversation with Mr. McCain. I phoned him during the outbreak to talk from a public health perspective and to see if there were any issues we could further address or there was any information we could provide to staff and others who were affected by this, and to hear their concerns about what was happening, etc. It was not about the public health management of it.

I think the members know that I have a dual role, both as the deputy minister responsible for the Public Health Agency and as the chief public health officer, to speak independently to governments and to Canadians on matters of public health. During and through this--and back to Mr. Bellavance's question--we had daily press conferences until we felt they were no longer necessary. That's when we stopped the press conferences.

Regarding the issue of what information was provided, no one from the Public Health Agency gave me direction about what information to provide, what questions to answer, how to answer questions, or what actions to take. If they had, I would have resisted it. That is not a political role. That is clearly why this position was established with that measure of independence on matters of public health. No one from the Prime Minister's Office, not the Prime Minister nor any minister, nor any minister's office, said, “I want you to say this.”

I do take advice on all issues from a whole range of people and perspectives and expertise. I take that into consideration. I want to have the best answers, the best approaches at any time, so I talk to many people, but I take my own counsel at the end of the day, because I am accountable and responsible for the advice I give and for how I address public health issues. I want to make that absolutely clear. For the future, for any person in this role, it's essential to have that independence to actually address the matters of public health. That is very clear, and it's fundamental. If that were an issue for me, I would have to resign.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you, Dr. Butler-Jones.

I'll move on to Mr. Anderson, for five minutes.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

First it's Mr. Shipley.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Mr. Shipley.