Evidence of meeting #4 for Subcommittee on Food Safety in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was health.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Chaplin
Sheila Weatherill  Independent Investigator, Listeriosis Investigative Review Secretariat
Bill Heffernan  Senator, Senate of Australia
David Butler-Jones  Chief Public Health Officer, Public Health Agency of Canada
Morris Rosenberg  Deputy Minister, Department of Health
Frank Plummer  Scientific Director General, National Microbiology Laboratory, Public Health Agency of Canada
Jeff Farber  Director, Bureau of Microbial Hazards, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Meena Ballantyne  Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

We'll call our meeting to order.

I'd like to thank Ms. Weatherill for being here today.

Before we start her presentation, I wanted to read this into the record, pursuant to chapter 20 regarding testimony:

Particular attention has been paid to the questioning of public servants. The obligation of a witness to answer all questions put by the committee must be balanced against the role that public servants play in providing confidential advice to their Ministers. The role of the public servant has traditionally been viewed in relation to the implementation and administration of government policy, rather than the determination of what that policy should be. Consequently, public servants have been excused from commenting on the policy decisions made by the government. In addition, committees will ordinarily accept the reasons that a public servant gives for declining to answer a specific question or series of questions which involve the giving of a legal opinion, or which may be perceived as a conflict with the witness' responsibility to the Minister, or which is outside of their own area of responsibility or which might affect business transactions.

With that, Ms. Weatherill, I thank you for appearing today.

Mr. Bellavance.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

I have a question about what you just said.

Is Ms. Weatherill considered a public servant? Do these rules apply to her?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Would she be considered the same as somebody in the minister's office? My answer would be no, but I thought it relevant to read this. I meant to read it at the last meeting as well. It's simply a reminder to all of us.

Does that answer your question?

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Yes, I understand that the rules you just mentioned do not apply to Ms. Weatherill. Could the clerk clarify this for us?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Would the clerk like to speak to that?

4:05 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Andrew Chaplin

There's not much I can say other than what you just read out.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Do they apply to her or not? Can someone assure me that they really do not apply to her?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I can't confirm that with absolute certainty. Probably not all of what I read would be pertinent to Ms. Weatherill. Maybe that could be one of your questions to her. That's the best answer I can give you on that, Mr. Bellavance. Certainly Ms. Weatherill's position would not be the same as that of somebody working in the minister's office. She could answer that more clearly than I could. I would suggest that you use it if it's an issue with you.

I didn't read this to create a controversy. It was simply a reminder to the committee members. If you remember, I have read it in earlier meetings.

Mr. Anderson.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Ms. Weatherill is conducting an investigation. She can't be expected to participate in any discussion that would indicate prejudgment of what she's doing, what she intends to hear, or what she intends to conclude. It would be unrealistic of the committee to demand that from her, and I don't think that we should expect to do that. I think she should be free to decline to answer questions in those areas.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

We have to leave that up to Ms. Weatherill. Only she knows what she can and can't answer. I would submit that you're correct in that she can't disclose the outcome of her investigation, because it's not yet complete.

Ms. Weatherill, please go ahead.

April 22nd, 2009 / 4:10 p.m.

Sheila Weatherill Independent Investigator, Listeriosis Investigative Review Secretariat

Mr. Chair and members of the committee—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

There is a point of order, sorry.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

I didn't want to interrupt, but I wanted to add to your comments, Mr. Chair. I believe it's clear in Marleau and Montpetit, under chapter 20 in regard to testimony, that you have some discretion and some responsibility to ensure that the questioning is appropriate. That falls under your responsibility, and I hope that you will keep the committee on track.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

If I think the question's out of order, I will certainly indicate so.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I'm sorry for that interruption, Ms. Weatherill. Please go ahead.

4:10 p.m.

Independent Investigator, Listeriosis Investigative Review Secretariat

Sheila Weatherill

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, thank you very much for your invitation today. It's a privilege to appear before you to share some thoughts on my mandate as the independent investigator of the listeriosis investigation review.

Last year Canadians witnessed a tragic event that eventually cost the lives of 22 citizens. This tragedy was caused by food that was assumed to be safe but was not. I was asked by government to lead this investigation, and I am proud as a Canadian to do what I can to better understand this matter of great importance to us all--to understand what happened during 2008 in the listeriosis outbreak and how to prevent a similar recurrence.

The event shook the confidence of Canadians in the safety of food products and in the food inspection system. Canadians expect their food to be safe. They expect an inspection system that works. They expect to be informed in a timely and clear manner when there is a problem, and they expect all levels of government to cooperate effectively in the best interests of the public.

I recognize that members of this committee have a key role to play in the efforts currently under way to ensure that our food safety system is second to none in the world. I take this responsibility seriously. Both this committee and the independent investigation I'm conducting can make significant contributions that will help prevent a tragedy such as the one we experienced last summer from happening again. That is why, when I was approached, I agreed to lead a non-partisan investigation into the outbreak of last summer.

I was appointed by the Governor in Council on January 20, 2009, to lead the review with a specific mandate to examine the events, circumstances, and factors that contributed to the outbreak; review the efficiency and effectiveness of the response of the federal organizations in conjunction with their food safety system partners in terms of prevention, recall of contaminated products, and collaboration and communication, including communication with consumers; and make recommendations based on lessons learned from that event and from other countries' best practices to prevent a similar outbreak in the future and remove contaminated products from the food supply.

I know you're aware that my investigation is ongoing. We're just partway through it, and as such, I am limited in what I can say publicly. This is an important point. While I understand that people want clarity, conclusions, and recommendations that can be acted on as soon as possible, I have the obligation to respect my mandate and not prejudge what I'm hearing and learning over the course of the investigation. I would be doing Canadians a disservice by drawing conclusions before all the evidence was in and analyzed.

What I can say, however, is that the evidence trail is being followed wherever it leads, and I intend to make substantive, clear recommendations that have a common purpose to improve the safety of Canadians in respect of the food they eat. I therefore ask the understanding of committee members in appreciation that this will guide my response to members' questions. I am pleased, however, to discuss today the approach we are taking with the investigation. My mandate requires me to deliver findings and recommendations by July 20 of this year, and I'm confident that the report will be substantive and on time.

We're currently engaged in an in-depth review of events that led to the tragedy last summer, with a particular focus on understanding what happened; what each of the three key federal organizations--the Public Health Agency of Canada, CFIA, and Health Canada--as well as Maple Leaf Foods did, when, and why; analyzing the quality and timeliness of the responses of the three federal agencies; determining the adequacy of actions taken to date in response to the outbreak; and advising on improvements that should be put in place based on what happened last summer, taking into account advice and practices elsewhere in the world.

I can assure you that a key focus for me is identifying improvements so this never happens again.

Our work is guided by five principles: access to the most accurate and complete information available; independence from all parties, both inside and outside government; systematic investigative techniques; external expert advice; and consideration of all legitimate viewpoints to ensure that the approach is fair, collaborative, and constructive.

I wanted to deal with each principle in a bit more detail. First, on ensuring access to the most accurate and complete information available, I am very pleased to report that the investigation has received extraordinary collaboration from the three federal organizations engaged in this issue, as well as Maple Leaf Foods. We've also had fruitful and open and ongoing discussions with senior provincial officials and their chief medical officers of health, including from the Province of Ontario.

To date, we have received significant documentation, which is now under careful examination, and this documentation complements and supports the more than 100 meetings, visits, and investigative interviews that have been completed or are planned in the preparation of our report.

Our investigative team has a mix of backgrounds and expertise. Our team has experience in food safety, public health, long-term care, regulation, and governance. Our team also includes physicians, forensic document experts, and independent investigative legal counsel.

We have a group of external expert advisers, and I'm going to name them for you: Dr. John Carsley, a public health expert, currently a medical officer of health with Vancouver Coastal Health in B.C., previously from Montreal, with a specific expertise in epidemiology; Dr. Walter Schlech from Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia, a listeria expert in the immunocompromised, and Dr. Schlech was involved in the first recorded event to identify listeria in food in the 1980s; Dr. Mansel Griffiths, a food-borne micro-organism expert from the University of Guelph, who is a director of the Canadian Research Institute for Food Safety, well known to industry as the industrial dairy chair in microbiology; Dr. Bruce Tompkin from Illinois, a microbiologist and practical expert in food safety, with a deep experience, a lot of practical experience, who has worked with some of the largest U.S. meat producers--Swift, Beatrice, Armour, ConAgra--and in this role he served as a plant hygiene expert; and last, Dr. Michael Doyle, a microbiologist from Georgia, who is now directly involved in the American peanut recall and the pistachio recall.

On the principle of independence, it is important to me that this review is conducted with full independence. I strongly believe that independence, coupled with the collaborative approach we’ve adopted, gives us the best opportunity to understand what happened and gives us our best chance at constructive suggestions for improvement. As well, our legal counsel is specialized in discovery processes. We have the assistance of forensic document experts to identify key evidence in the data we have received.

On the principle of fairness, it is our goal to treat everyone engaged in this process with respect, an open mind, while ensuring we have basic procedural fairness.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I want to reassure you and the members of the committee that our investigation is moving forward and we are receiving the full cooperation of all participants. We are on target for a completed and substantive report by July 20.

I believe your committee and this investigation share a common intention to get to the bottom of what happened last summer. Why did the 2008 listeriosis outbreak end in tragedy, 22 deaths, and the suffering caused to Canadian families and communities? Like you, we are seeking recommendations to reduce the risk and the consequences of future outbreaks.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to appear today. I look forward to your questions

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you very much, Ms. Weatherill.

Mr. Easter, for seven minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Ms. Weatherill. We appreciate your appearance.

I have to say in the beginning, Ms. Weatherill, that government members have gone to great lengths to portray my and my party's criticism of the process as criticism of your credibility. I want to assure you up front that your credibility is not in question. But my concern is—and I emphasize the word “concern”—that you could be used to provide cover for the PMO and the minister's office in the way this process is established.

In your opening remarks, you go to fairly great lengths, and I think a lot will be found out by your investigation. You establish in here that there will be “an in-depth review of events that led to the tragedy last summer”, and you outline the areas to focus on. You say “I can assure you the investigation is focused on identifying improvements so this never happens again.”

But contrary to what I think the public thought when the Prime Minister made statements in September, you're not going to determine responsibility. Am I correct?

4:20 p.m.

Independent Investigator, Listeriosis Investigative Review Secretariat

Sheila Weatherill

The mandate does not contemplate my commenting on criminal or civil issues.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

On September 3, the Prime Minister indicated that he would be calling for an “arm's-length investigation” into the listeriosis outbreak. On January 20, the Prime Minister announced your appointment as the investigator and said you would “independently examine the factors that contributed to the listeriosis outbreak and make recommendations on how to prevent a similar occurrence in the future”. I submit that's a far different process from what the public expected--to hold people to account--or what a public inquiry might get to.

As I understand it, you work out of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada offices.

4:20 p.m.

Independent Investigator, Listeriosis Investigative Review Secretariat

Sheila Weatherill

Our office space is in an historic building at the experimental farm. We have the top two floors of a building, and it's a secure space. The lower floor is used for training purposes. It's space that was provided to us, and it has been very suitable.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

So that space is being provided by Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada--or do you know?

4:20 p.m.

Independent Investigator, Listeriosis Investigative Review Secretariat

Sheila Weatherill

The lead department is Agriculture, and our space is provided through the Department of Agriculture.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

At the end of the day, your terms of reference are that you report to the minister. Is that correct?