Foreign Affairs Committee on June 21st, 2006

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Duly noted? Then let's go for the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

It's noted, but we want to see if this will take away some of the concerns the government may have, and that is.... They still don't have a copy of the motion.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Chairman, I put forth the original motion and I just thought I'd rewrite the amended motion to help the clerk, actually. I should have made more copies for the government, and I apologize to you. But we can write it out.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Okay. We have one addition here that I want you to hear: "That the Committee recommends that the government work with victims in Canada to ascertain the feasibility of existing domestic crimes", etc.

So then what we're doing is--

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead, Mr. Patry.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Deepak, I understand Dr. Martin on this, but for me, it is a problem--a legal problem, a logistics problem, a Security Council problem. The thing is that you need to get a broader sense.

I will read it; I wrote it in French, "That the Committee recommends to the government that the government study all the possibilities that the President of Zimbabwe, Mr. Robert Mugabe, needs to respond about his crimes against humanity."

That's it.

That the Committee recommend that the government consider all options for making the president of Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe, accountable for his crimes against humanity.

That's broader. It means everything. We ask the government to look at this issue, period.

[An hon. member]

Could I have it again in the English version?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Can you say it one more time? He has it in French, but the interpreter is still here.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I didn't translate it.

It's late for me too. Usually, I'm in bed.

It says:

That the Committee recommend that the government consider all options for making the president of Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe, accountable for his crimes against humanity.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

The question that comes out here is that the crimes against humanity, under international law, cannot be charged against a sitting head of state. You see?

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

But we're not asking for that. There's a possibility they're going to study this, and the answer will be: we can study it with the Security Council.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

That is why I'm asking that you give us more time to look at it and see--

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

We'll give you more time.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

We need more time on this one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

-Mr. Martin.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

I think there's a way of squaring this circle.

I fully understand your position. On a factual matter, I know the stuff you got from the department, Deepak, and with all due respect, it's wrong. That's why we have the crimes against humanity legislation. It was to do exactly this. Heads of state do not have immunity from prosecution.

Secondly, in order to give laterality too, I think Madam Guarnieri's proposal to simply look at the feasibility enables us to at least move forward with looking at ways in which we can try to stop Mr. Mugabe and bring him to justice. That's my intent. It's not to embarrass the government. It's not to put you in an untenable position. It's not to do something that's unrealistic or in fact illegal. It's to do something within the boundaries of law, and certainly something that we as a committee, in a very productive and constructive way, could put forth before the summer to address a crisis that is occurring, as Madam McDonough said, under the radar screen and will continue unless we do something.

I wonder if you would consider Madam Guarnieri's statement, which is to say, look at the feasibility. Because it doesn't—

[An hon. member]

But what if it's not feasible? It's not feasible.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

We need time here. We are not going to see its legal implications.

You are welcome to put your motion. It doesn't matter to us, you know.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Okay.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

So go ahead and put your motion.

[Albina Guarnieri, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

We're simply trying to accommodate you.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Call the question on the amended motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Epp.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Mr. Chairman, I have a real dilemma. I'm subbing here today, so I'm new to this, but I've had lots of experience in committees. I don't like it when I'm being backed into a corner to vote against something that I actually support, and that's the dilemma you're giving me here. I don't believe the member's motion addresses the issue in a way that is solvable, and yet I certainly am sympathetic to the issue.

What we need to have here is a motion that is legally correct so it can address the issue without putting fine people like me into the embarrassing position of having to vote in favour of continuing Robert Mugabe's crimes against humanity, because that's what it would look like. And I don't want to do that.